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AllBetter
Discussions on addiction and recovery. We interview clinicians/researchers, legislators, and individuals that include a variety of means to recovery. Joe Van Wie is a father, husband, filmmaker, and reformed media consultant in recovery.
AllBetter
"SHEILDS Program" with Pat DeSarno
Get ready to discover the hidden struggles and triumphs of our first responders and veterans as they face the challenge of addiction. Welcoming our guest, Pat DeSarno, Shields Service Specialist at Brookdale Premier Addiction Recovery Center and former fire chief, we delve into a candid and enlightening discussion. Unraveling decades of civil service, Pat shares his personal journey of recovery, providing a unique perspective on the often overlooked issue of addiction among those who serve our communities.
Deep diving into the complex nexus of PTSD, addiction, and the fire services, we engage in a critical conversation on the unique challenges facing this tight-knit community. We discuss how ego and fear often perpetuate a cycle of silence, as these brave men and women grapple with being perceived as weak. Our conversation underscores the importance of incorporating clinical therapy into recovery programs and the life-changing impact of programs like Shields, designed specifically for first responders at Brookdale.
In our final segment, we discover the transformative power of fellowship and awareness in recovery. With Pat sharing his experiences with the Shields program and the 12-step routine, we highlight the essential role of these tools in the recovery journey. We further delve into the significance of book workshops and fellowship programs that can greatly influence an individual's recovery path. Let's embark on this journey of resilience, recovery, and hope together. Join us for this powerful episode that's not just about overcoming addiction, but about recognizing the strength and courage of our everyday heroes.
SHEILDS PROGRAM: https://brookdalerecovery.com/shields-program/
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Hello and thanks again for listening to another episode of All Better. I'm your host, joe Banh-Wi. Today's guest is Pat DeSarno.
Speaker 1:Pat is the Shields Service Specialist at Brookdale Premier Addiction Recovery Center. That brings forth both the personal and professional expertise needed to serve their first responder population. As former fire chief of the Scranton Fire Department and as a person in long-term recovery, pat understands the specific needs of our uniform professionals and what it takes to overcome addiction in their environment. With 31 years experience as a civil servant, pat spent 25 years on the line raising to the rank of lieutenant and in the last six years of his career as the fire chief. In addition, pat has spent countless hours working with first responders struggling with substance use disorder, feeling compelled to carry the message of hope, help them realize their own potential in recovery. As a Shields Specialist, he has joined the Brookdale team to help build first responders a place to land and have their own program, helping support and serve an extremely tight-knit segment of our society.
Speaker 1:Pat is a certified recovery specialist and has received his trauma certification. Through his own personal experience, pat inspires identification among Shields patients and turning the opening of a door of trust, honesty and recovery. Outside of work, pat enjoys golfing, traveling, coaching, wrestling and spending time with his girlfriend, mary Beth, six children and eight grandchildren. Let's meet Pat and find out more about the Shields program. Okay, we're here with Pat DiSarno, my friend. We're going to cover a couple topics today Pat's entry in general, a general way into recovery, what the Shields program is for first responders, police and firefighters, and what Pat has been up to for the last five years.
Speaker 2:What's up, joe? Thanks for having me on here. I really appreciate it. I love talking about recovery, a Shields program in particular because first responders. We've also expanded at Brookdale now to include veterans in our program and I have a soft spot.
Speaker 2:My love and respect for veterans goes back to my dad 21-year career army, korean War and Vietnam. He was a two-war guy Purple Heart, brown Star, etc. That's the real deal. My love and respect for veterans goes way, way deep. So when it was suggested by the former CEO up at Brookdale that we include veterans, I was no resistance whatsoever. I went through a program I don't know how the chronology you want to go here is, but I went through a program at more words, if I can mention that and we had the Shields program up there and Shields was just first responders police, firefighters, corrections officers, ems, etc. And they didn't include veterans at the time. But the Shields, the technical name, was the Uniform Professionals program, that was their true name for it and I remember going up there. Well, I don't know where you want me to start, how I got here, how I came into this fellowship yeah, I think let's start a little story there.
Speaker 1:I think that gives a really good description of where we're going to land.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Shields, I'm a little bit curious about your dad being in the Korean War in Vietnam. Yes, he got a tail end, and so how old would he have been when he was a young man in Korea, at like 18?
Speaker 2:Yeah right, fresh out of high school over to Korea. I was actually born on an army base there. My mom is Korean, I'm half Korean and Italian and yeah, right toward the end of it, as they were wrapping up, wrapping it up in Korea, he was deployed, Spent a couple of years over there and then came home and then got to go to Vietnam as well.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a stretch. And you bleed blue though, too.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm a West Side of the Torch. Yeah, thank you for showing that out there. Yeah, you probably can't see me, but I got it up there.
Speaker 1:West Side till fourth grade man.
Speaker 2:Once a West Side or always a West Side.
Speaker 1:Oxy Plot, oxy Plot, summers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, and how about? All I was 10th Avenue, 10th Avenue.
Speaker 1:You would have known, probably my sister Gina. Gina remember Terry Tansley, or were they a little young? They were a little younger for me, I think so, yeah, that was that crew, louis Flowers, and, oh God, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, I remember, I'm all the flowers, boys, girls, all the big loo. You know, just they were yeah, they were fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they were my heroes right as kids.
Speaker 2:Right across from St Lucie's Church. I grew up Father.
Speaker 1:Cotone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, father Cotone, that's right. Yeah, good stuff.
Speaker 1:Good stuff, man. That's interesting. You grew up around of that, Someone who followed the chain of command loyalty duty for probably big ideas in your house. When did you get first drawn to the relief that alcohol or any substance gave to you? What do you think you were getting relief from, pat?
Speaker 2:I want you know I tell this in my story that I wanted to fit in. You know I had this face that in the 60s and 70s, scranton, pennsylvania, didn't quite fit in. Okay, a little different. We weren't as diverse as we are these days. So I needed to do more. I needed a little bit more to fit in. I needed to make friends. They were playing sports, I was playing sports. They were drinking, I was drinking. They were smoking weed, I was whatever. I just wanted to do more to fit in because I looked different and I remember I won't mention my good friend, my good friend our yards were connected and, as some people know, there used to be the bread man, the milk man and the beer man back in the day and my friend's dad would leave his two cases of 16 ounce Stegmaier returnables on the back porch and some of the old Nipah guys will appreciate that and he would leave it the two cases.
Speaker 2:And a little note you know, donning, leave two cases and leave the money. We would change it, donning, leave three cases and leave the money. And before I got back from work we would take that top case off and write down into the cellar. And I can remember, man, that first 12 years old right, that first crack of the beer. You needed an opener back then and I, oh that relief, I belong. Yeah, I'm here with my buddies now, and that was it.
Speaker 1:That's real man.
Speaker 2:That was it. Yeah, I got friends. Now this makes me feel like I belong. I'm sitting here having a couple of having a couple of beers with my buddies and the excitement of it all. You know the sneaking around and the danger of it off. You want to say that just that started it. You know, and you know it was, it was good and it went along in my life, went along, I had a pretty good clip and just somewhere along the line I crossed that line. You know, like your books, like the book says we'll get into, I'm a big book guy. You know, I'm an a, I'm an addict, alcoholic, who has changed my life through the steps and principles of alcohol. It's anonymous because I've learned. It's not the substance, man, it's the why. Now, why is the why use? And then the thoughts, the behaviors and the consequences. Those are the similarities. So, like it says in the book, man, you know, I just I fit, I felt like I fit in, you know you can't repeat it enough because it takes a little bit of it.
Speaker 1:It seems like a huge revelation for me. It was to think I didn't make that connection. I thought if I stopped drinking I was going to be all right. I didn't make the sense that the addiction was an attempt to solve a problem. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and I don't again, I don't know when I crossed that line. You know, it tells me that long before it. We know it. Yeah it's, we've crossed it long before we know it.
Speaker 1:For some of us it doesn't seem relevant to get started in recovery. If curiosity provides it, some people really dig in and try it, but it doesn't need to be known now to produce recovery. That's the interesting part to me. I'm like well, when you started your career, what drew you to be a first responder or into public service? And I got a water there for you.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. I'll say this For me it was not a calling. It wasn't a calling per se. I was young man. Well, yeah, for my 20, almost 28 at the time. Yeah, 28 at the time. Let's 18 in Scranton yeah, 28 at the time, 18 in my life.
Speaker 2:I was a little children at the time, yeah, and I'd always just been trying to improve myself and, to be honest, it was just, it was a good job with good benefits. Yeah, that's what I looked at it at first, just trying to improve myself. And then, as time goes by, it does become a calling, it does turn to something you love doing, you love helping people, et cetera. And you know the whole, whatever you want to call it, the thrill of the job, the camaraderie which is a big part of Shields, the camaraderie that comes with the job, the trusting you learn, you learn that whole thing about chain of command and got a count on your, your partner, et cetera, the guys on your company, et cetera. But and that's that's what started my journey, to, like I said, to be honest, it wasn't a calling to start. So you're 28.
Speaker 1:What year is this? Is this early 90s? May of 89. I was high, 89. May of 89. 89. The okay, I was just watching Netflix. That was the year of John Gotti's fourth trial. It was a new series on there, but so it's 1989. Can you just speak to one word? Um, the power the unions had then and really distinctly our region for firefighters, police, it seemed like, if I'm not mistaken you could correct me if I'm wrong Scranton was one of the most highly desired areas to work as a first responder because of how strong the Union was in protecting wages rights. You know the high demand of the job. We somehow ended up with a really strong and organized Union here for police and firefighters right.
Speaker 2:Yes, when I first came on the job, the unions were the IAEFF, which I belong to, international Association of Firefighters was very strong. The FOP, the Fraternal and Police. They were very strong as well. Both of the public safety unions in the city were very strong. And you know, little by little, as reality said, in the reality of the world, you know they lost their grip a little bit, you know, and you know they got some good, bad or otherwise. It was just the reality of the thing.
Speaker 2:And the job changed from when I started by the time I retired and, as I'll get into, at the end of it all I was on the other side of that fence. Okay, I was on the management side. For 25 years I was a Union member, a career firefighter, rose to lieutenant and then the last six years I was the superintendent. So I was on the other side of it, but I was always.
Speaker 2:I always try to advocate for what was right, or you know, I really did, even when I was nuts. Okay, I, just as far as that one, I was tried to advocate for what was right and what was wrong and I always realized that. And I'll just say, most times when grievances were brought to bear, and I don't forget off track here, but when grievances were brought to bear it was always, for the most part, it was management side that kind of screwed the pooch, you know, went against the contract, went against what was agreed to, and that was just my experience. So I tried to change that, tried to, you know, keep management, you know, keep them on the right track and to avoid all the crap that went on.
Speaker 1:I like speaking to I just had someone from a Union and the relationship between the complexity of a career, a job, especially one that's, if you're injured, you can not only lose your life, but what do you do? You're 30, you can break your back, your hip, extreme burns that these jobs need a voice, an organized voice, to protect their future, or if they've lost the ability to work. I just always find that interesting that most people are removed from that kind of organization and I always like to talk a little bit about it because your career is real distinct in the sense. Unlike other jobs, you could go to work and maybe have to work three, four days in a row, and then you go home and you could see some horrifying shit.
Speaker 1:And what does this do to a person who might have a virgining addiction to begin with? And is the addiction now a tool to help with work stresses? Seeing high acuity, trauma from car accidents to burn victims, even domestic violence. Firefighters are on the scene. For what does this do to a person and how do you not take that home, especially if the addiction is rising up in your life?
Speaker 2:Well, it's absolutely a part of it. As I look back, work my way through this program, work my way through the steps and recovery, I see that I did drink and use a lot at those things. But when I'm in it I know I can't see that and I have to put up the facade. That's a big part of Shields too, that facade that I'm okay. The ego what do we call this? Eagle maniacs with inferiority complexes? Right, yeah, and I'm like holy crap, that absolutely applied to me.
Speaker 2:You know that I can't admit that I'm weak because I'm afraid of how that's gonna help. People are gonna look at me. Okay, I can't ask for help because I'm the helper. And if I ask for help I'm gonna look weak amongst people, amongst my peers. It's gonna all the stuff in my head that's gonna cause mistrust. I'm not gonna be looked at as this super guy and it's insanity. And I tell the guys that come in that that attitude will kill you. Okay, that will kill you If you are an addict or an alcoholic, that having that attitude of ego, your ego, will kill you.
Speaker 2:And they you know some of them are a little taken aback by that, but so many of them just like, holy shit, man, you're right, you know that's what it is, that we are the helpers. We don't ask for help period. And so what's our alternative? Right, drink it away. Drug it away. Don't feel, you know. You know, like to use that cliche, but numb ourselves, you know, to the stuff we've seen and the stuff we're feeling, because we don't have any other outlet for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when you started, I mean there's been so many shifts and changes since 1989 with what that job could do to someone, what it could do, you know, for cops, firefighters and even mentioned vets. Ptsd wasn't a term until, like you know, after 2000 that it started to have its own symptoms, kind of these ideas of it. But to have imagery in your head or a reoccurring thought of something you've seen or could produce itself in nightmares I was reading about it. I think you'd find this interesting path.
Speaker 1:What happens also is that you can't put things in a long term memory. So, whatever the conflict was, so you see some horrifying violence or a car accident, it won't go into long term memory. So your brain, your amygdala, is constantly scanning for threats because this is going to keep happening, like the events still happening subconsciously. So you're always at a heightened sense. So like dropping a pen might make you snap the hell out and I think addicts have a general anxiety like that. But you guys are on the front lines of stuff, so it's really really heightened. Alcohol at first, in the beginning of addiction, would be great relief to that. It would make you feel relieved.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, okay, that suppressed that memory for now. Yeah, but excuse me. But then as the time goes by, especially years, as I've learned from our awesome, one of our awesome clinical counselors up there who, don, who is a huge part, she's the main, she's the program director of the Shields as the clinical part of it and she said something once to a bunch of we were sitting there having a session and she said something and that a PTSD she has learned. She's VA trained by the way, I'll put that out there in trauma therapy, and this is at Brookdale. At Brookdale, yes, donna's our, she's our top clinician for the Shields and she said you know, it doesn't seem to creep in until about maybe five years or so.
Speaker 2:I'm not big on timelines, sure, but she says around five years or so. This is when it starts to present. And there was like three or four vets there that just went like right to her immediately afterwards it said Holy shit, man, we didn't know what was happening. Wow, yeah, it was like a big revel, even for me as well. Yeah, me too. These guys just had this holy shit Like we didn't know what was happening to us.
Speaker 1:It must have been that number five. That must have made complete sense to them. Her reputation precedes her. People speak really highly of Donna.
Speaker 2:Well, not to get un-chronological, but when I, when I went to Brookdale, you know, when I went up there because I had, I had gone through a program similar, because of my stature in the first responder world that everyone would call it and because you know the I guess, the work that people the attraction, right, joe, the work people saw that I was doing, you know I was. I was going back up to Marworth. I was running little groups up there on Monday night, totally informal but carrying a message. You know, working, the working, the program. People saw me at meetings. People saw me, you know, a sponsor and taking people to the book, just doing the work.
Speaker 2:And I asked our old CEO. I said why are you offering this to me? He said. He said, look, I got one job. I was, you know, nick, nick C. Yeah, okay, he said I got one job I ever applied for. He said the rest of the people told me screw you. He said everything else in my life has been hey, can we talk to you, can we talk to you about something? Because they saw I was doing the next right thing. And he said that's why I'm offering this to you.
Speaker 2:So when I went up there I just it was kind of loosely based, you know, because they had it was something I had to get. I got up there before it was really up and ready to go. So I've been, like you know, slogging at it and but when they asked me to put together a a, a a gave them an outline of a program I knew the clinical part was was huge. It had to be. There had to be clinical parts because we had that up there small groups with the clinician sitting in all the time. It couldn't just be me. Okay, I'm not a clinician, I'm just another recovered A hole. Okay, that was like them that they were going to relate to.
Speaker 2:And Don was the first person I thought of. Don was I just know she was no BS. Okay, she was a school, she had the trauma training from the VA. And when I put down the clinicians I would like Don was first number one and there was, you know, other people but Don was number one and she's proven it. You know. She's proven time and time again that she's she can relate. It doesn't, it doesn't matter, she's also a family member, so she does have that also has that side to her too, you know.
Speaker 1:I was wondering how, like I put together because it was quick, broke the one up and it just seemed like a real home for the shields.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and I, like I've been Eddie, eddie Allen, one of the old, the old CEO, said like he, how did he put it? He said I've been like a one man wrecking crew for like a couple of years because I'd just been trying to keep it together, keep a cobble together, because I don't know it was, it was slow developing, let me let me put it this way and there was a lot of transition and there was a lot of people leaving that were it was just crazy. So finally, now that we have some stability, it's been really taking some shape now. Yeah, it really has been. So I'm I'm so thrilled, I'm grateful for that too, because it's so important.
Speaker 1:Pop them back to your story. Sure, when did you first realize alcohol or your drugs of choice were not working to get that same relief that you talked about earlier? And what did that cause panic.
Speaker 2:I didn't. I didn't really know I was just going along. Well, no, let me, let me. That's kind of a BS, because I would look in the mirror and say what the hell are you doing? And and how does this end? And I don't. I could see no good ending, and at this.
Speaker 1:you were pretty much in public life too, oh yeah, yeah. This was the first year of my tenure. That makes things different, and I'm not saying that you're different. Well, you know, we don't say that but there's a public scrutiny? If there's, you know that's extra pressure. I can't expose this. I have to keep the secret. I'll solve it on my own terms. Was that going on, joe?
Speaker 2:more than more than most people, the alcoholic leads a double life. Right, it's right in our book man. Right in my book. You know you that, you know I, I I enjoy a certain, a certain amount of you know, like all the accolades, a certain reputation, but I know in my heart I don't deserve it. That's and that's the battle man. That is not like I don't, I just nobody can find out, but it's insanity. I can't. Is anybody going to leave it in that paranoia and I don't want to feel that today. So I'm going to do this even more. Yeah, and that's the insanity, that's the insane world I was living in and looking at my, looking in the mirror, it's like I said, like how does this end? And I could see no good ending to it. And then to to answer, I guess, your question, when I finally realized it, when I was, when I was called on my BS. You know I'll keep, I'll leave the details, you know, to another time. Come to a meeting if you want.
Speaker 1:Come to a meeting. You'll hear them, I know the details.
Speaker 2:Come to a meeting you know, and I was called on my BS by a very prominent person in the community who, thank God, was one of one of me, one of us, and he gave me the courage and he said look, man, if you need some help, I will help you, but you got to tell me right now, or else this is going to be bad and let me ask you this, sir, you didn't think he set me up.
Speaker 1:There was no power. You, you saw, in that moment this person cared and wanted to help, really help, he said he.
Speaker 2:I remembered exactly Joe. He said look, I know what you're thinking, you know where the hell am I going from here, cause I couldn't see my future five feet in front of my face. He said I know what you're thinking. And he said you know I'm, you know where my position is now and you know where I'm going in a couple of months I'm going into an even higher position. And he said I have been through this, I'll help you. And I was like, oh my God, this man has given me a courage, he's shown me. Do I tell him me this? Okay, and the hope he's given me, but like, life doesn't end now, my life isn't over now, cause I'm looking at this man. He's moving on to another position, a higher, prominent position. I'm thinking that was the hope, that was that. And the hope was there because in the beginning, man, when he first confronted me, the ego kicked it screw you. I know who you are. Do you know who I think that I am? You know that kind of crap, or he?
Speaker 1:finds. He tried to leverage me. Like you know politics, you could you never know what the agenda is, or but not a genuine.
Speaker 2:It was genuine, and, and at the end of it all I said, instead of screw you coming out of my mouth, please help me. I want some help. Wow, that was it. Joe, that was that first step promise. Right, the moment I made the decision to go through with the through with it the process, I had the relief, Like I, I got a way out now, Cause I couldn't see any way out. You know, wow, the mask was off. Buddy, you can't, you can't under render.
Speaker 1:Yes, Both lives kind of start to merge. Now I'm Pat that wants help. I want the paranoia to end. I want to end them and it's essentially happening pre shields. This is a shields program cause. It's people who have another layer of loyalty when it comes to first responders, law enforcement. That's a real distinct world. I'm not saying it's different than any other alcoholic, but there's a distinction of protection of families, your job cops, of rested people that they may be in the rooms with. That's gotta be scary.
Speaker 2:Oh I. Well, my sponsor is law enforcement, but you know it's principles before personalities, right? He says that I've, I've taken guys through the book that I've arrested, seriously.
Speaker 2:And that's what it has to be. You know, cause, when I deal with a lot of officers, ceos, you know corrections, guys, and they're like I can't. I said this is what my sponsor tells me. Okay, yeah, I've taken people through the book principles before, personalities Okay, you have to show them. And you know, I have so many stories. But my sponsor said, when he went to treatment, he said I first lecture, I'm ready to go into the lecture, and I leaned into the one of the the texts are the one of the counselors, and I said hey, you know, by the way, I'm a cop. And he said he leaned, he said you're an alcoholic, get in the meeting. Yeah, that was very humbling, you know, but that's what it was. Yeah, and you know, we used to said something that we're not different, we're not better than, not less than, but we, there is a difference.
Speaker 2:Okay, when I, when I got into, when I got into Mara that was sitting at the calf Joe, like what the hell am I doing here? Like holy, holy crap, like I can't believe this, and two guys, two FDNY guys, came over and they said hey, man, we're your buddies and there's more of us here. And it was like all right, and that sense of relief that I immediately got that okay. And I see that one when I go, when I go down to the guys in detox, that the shields that are coming in, and I say, hey, I let them know who I am, what I'm doing here, and I could, I could see that sense of okay, you know like safety trust you know what I mean, that I could see it.
Speaker 1:I was in Marworth, one of the 15 treatment centers I went to Pat. It was a. There was a whole group of guys there, though there was one old timer that was a firefighter and I. They had a nickname for him because he did his entire tour was when the Bronx was burning and it was like a Bronx burning kind of nickname.
Speaker 1:But the sense of fellowship they had, especially on entry, it just looked so healthy, Like they were really protecting each other and helping each other, and in groups like I'd end up sometimes in a firefighter group to see them one person take the lead to share about something real stuff. It was like a domino effect that they would all it was just waiting to let out their real story.
Speaker 2:And when I was again, not better than at last, than just different. As you know, mara is right in my backyard, so I don't know who's in there, I don't know what their agenda is. So I'm pretty damn sure that I'm not gonna share everything in an open community. And had I not had the shields there in the beginning? Because we gotta get honest, you know that we gotta be open, we gotta trust, we gotta learn all those skills, and if it weren't for the shields group, I don't know that I would have done that in an open community. If I had gone to a facility that didn't have a shield, program was once we got into small group, man, I felt safe.
Speaker 1:So let me ask a simple question what is shields? Who does it include, and would it be it's cops?
Speaker 2:Yes, police, firefighters, corrections, EMS, healthcare, people that work in any of those fields. I came in like a nurse that rides on an ambulance. Emts, EMTs yes, absolutely. Dispatchers and veterans all branches.
Speaker 1:So this includes all the shields and what is the distinction? What is the shields outside of having their own clinician? Like, how would you just give me a summary of what makes it a program?
Speaker 2:We start a identification. We buddy them up buddy to buddy. Shields. We try to room as best as we can. Yeah, we have our clinician for the small groups. It's all those the shields guys together for the small groups and they work on the clinical stuff. They work. Talk about DBT, okay, they talk about all the different therapies, the clinical stuff. And then for our specialty groups they're from two, they're twice a week and it's just the shields again and that's where the trauma part works. Okay, but other than that, and then on the other thing, if we have people that wanna go for relapse prevention, early sobriety, grief, those are the other specialty groups that are offering. We 100% encourage them to do so. Nobody's forced to come into. And then nobody's forced to come into the to participate in the program we offer to them. And 99.9% rate is like, yeah, I want that. That's awesome, I wanna be part of that.
Speaker 1:And how does someone who's say an EMT, they're curious about their own they start making calls? If they went through their union, would the union be able to articulate shields programs to them like a shields program?
Speaker 2:That's one of the things that I'm gonna say on this. I've been frustrated with over the last couple of years, but now I think we have a little traction where we are going to start getting out there and to actively promote. That'd be awesome. Okay, like I travel to different departments, travel just.
Speaker 1:I believe, Put a presentation on and then maybe you could have.
Speaker 2:You know, I did a whole interview, a whole video that was on Facebook for a while. A while back I saw it, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2:And that disappeared again. It was like, hey, here we go, and then the rugs pulled out, yeah. So I think hopefully now we're gonna get some traction, especially into the promotion part of it, because some guys come in and say I didn't even know this existed, but then others say I heard from word of mouth that it did. So we gotta try to tighten that up a little bit. I believe and again, these are things that are way above my pay grade, so to speak, but things that I would love to see happen and things that I've been pushing since the beginning.
Speaker 1:It would just be good to know that I have a brother in law enforcement, that they always know that there is a way for them to go to treatment that doesn't expose them. They're not gonna be around the people they arrested, or like that idea that could maybe make them pause just long enough that a real tragedy could happen, Like there's no hiccup there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, to enter in treatment. I knew when your brother and I we've actually we've carried the message together for some time, for a little while we were going up to him over together.
Speaker 1:He makes a distinction. He goes to Shield's meetings because he needs support. He goes to meetings that service, you know, and for him, like that was early on now, he doesn't care. But in the beginning the Shield's was for him Exactly To talk about things he wasn't gonna talk about at a meeting.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, at my core I'm an addict, I'm an alcoholic, but in the beginning, like I said, that helped me tremendously. Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:What drew you to so you had this run in with Nick. It awakens up a new career path.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this If there's a trend you know back with treatments, maybe centers over the last 15 years or so, a departure formally, I'll put in quotations from the 12 steps and making sure things that are in literature or presented in groups have more of a clinical description, summary and you see people leaving from the 12 step being part of a modality that can happen within the treatment center. Brookdeals embrace classic 12 steps, letting that be part of some of the programming and this is a big portion of what you teach. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I'll talk about the big book all day, joe, because it saved my life. You know, the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, the principles have saved my life, changed my life to. You know, I kind of never see, like they say, life beyond your wildest dreams. I think that's corny, but it's true, you know. So a while back, when I was first going there, I was just kind of floating around like I said, not knowing what I'm doing. So I would just, you know, talk to people about the book, be it informal. Go talk to Pat about the steps, go and talk with the shields and, you know, start doing some step work, because it doesn't say you have to wait until you get out of treatment, to it. It's when you want what we have and you're ready to do anything, then you are ready. Those are the words, okay, so, and it just kind of got informal. And then they said you know what? We think we need a big book study. And I was like, all right, let's do it. So every weekday I would do a big book study. And you know the difference between Brookdale and where I went was, you know, when I went, here's your big book. We got the steps all over the wall and we're gonna talk about A, but we're never really gonna delve into the big book. Sure, and I don't know if they've changed that yet, because I can't contest to that, but at the time it was just like here's your big book and here's AA, but we're not really gonna talk about AA, we're gonna do all the other stuff. And which was whatever. What did I know? But I have found, you know, I know how I changed my life. You know, the clinical part was awesome and here's let me put it this way, if I can, you know, when people don't want to talk about aftercare, aftercare for me was suggested that you know, go here, come back up here for six weeks, twice a week. And I was like, okay, you know, I don't really want to. But my sponsor said, well, is there a job? Ramification? I said no. He said then why dismiss it out of hand? I said you know what? Okay, fair enough. So I went there and it was awesome. I clipped with my therapist. It was great. I got a lot of good stuff.
Speaker 2:Meanwhile, joe, in those six weeks, I was five weeks into the book. Okay, yeah, I came out running. You get out. I came out, I wanted this. I had my sponsor, I was making meetings. I said I want to change now Cause, luckily well, let me kind of back up when I was sitting there, I remember talking about God putting people in your life right.
Speaker 2:When I got called to my BS on that Wednesday, my future sponsor was sitting in the room with this other fellow. Okay, and that was on a Wednesday. I went to, I went to treatment on Friday, monday, eight PM is a shields group, okay, and who comes strolling in? But my sponsor, my future sponsor. I'm like what are you doing here? He said, oh well, one of our ADAs, their, his sister, is the admissions director here. And she said hey, your friend, your friend John, he's sober, right, I think he'd come up and talk to the guys. He said so I've been doing it. She said I've been doing that for a while.
Speaker 2:So I was told the story. These four kids come in because they're kids, my sponsors, two years older than my oldest son, four kids this John, john, john and Jesse it's over boy band. I used to call them right, strolling in with their big books. Right, ricky, ronnie, bobby, mike, here they come, and that's where I learned about the book, because we'd just be talking like you and I, and they go hold on and they'd open up the book and they talk and they'd pull something out of it and we talk some more and it whoa, whoa, whoa. Here's where it talks about that in here. And it's like these kids have what I want and they keep talking about this damn book. There's gotta be something to it, okay.
Speaker 1:And was it disarming to think it's A? Not, it's not their opinion, there's A. You see something different about their personality. He have a little idea of who they are. But the fact that they're sourcing their ideas from a book kind of disarms you that or creates an interest that okay. It's just not some any guy telling me something. Whatever he thinks about alcoholism or hobbies, it's coming from a book. Yeah, yeah, right, Disarms you, right. What is with that?
Speaker 2:yeah, what's with this book, dave? Oh, so, this, okay. So, and you know, you've heard the saying it's not a novel, it's meant to be taught, it's a manual. And that was another thing that helps me relate to the guys is I say you know, in all of our professions here we're trained. Okay, we have a training manual, this is your training manual. And when we're in a jam, what are we told? Revert to your training. Yeah, that's what this book is, man, that's what these steps are. They're your training. And when you're in jam, you refer back to the steps.
Speaker 1:So you're seeing guys from all different age classes 50s, retired, 30s, 20s, guys just on the job. Are you seeing? How do you creatively get past the language? Language changes every 10 years, even if it's the same word, the way it's used. The big book's hard to read, and I don't mean hard to read. It's hard to have the experience by yourself. When do you see that the words come alive to them and what are you doing to make that interesting to a person that's in their 30s or 40s? That is like that's what that means, that's what that's saying, and to think they might never relate to a guy from 80 years ago in New York to watch that happen. What are the things you're using to make the words come alive to them in these workshops?
Speaker 2:Really, simply, is my experience, me and, like you, would do it with you. That's how it was taught to me, right? That's how it was shown to me, cause I read it three times. I'm a pretty smart guy, right? Just ask us, we're pretty smart guys. I read it in treatment, read it right out of treatment, and the third time, when John would say, okay, this is the chapter we're reading this week, this is what we're working on this week, I would read it again.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't until, right, he sat across from me, joe, read it to me, stopped, showed me the action, showed me the promises, interspersed his own experience where, oh, that's what it is, okay. That's where the connection came, the relation that it was just interjecting my own experiences, cause it doesn't matter how old or young, or the drug or the drink, it's just my thoughts, my behaviors and, again, I was keeping it real simple my consequences, and these are the things that I seem to find out that people can relate to. So when they asked me to do I'm sorry, I got way out of track when they asked me to do a big book study, I was like, yeah, let's do it. And it was just, it was optional at the first, okay, so it would have a smattering of people. But then it started growing more and more and more and then they decided to make it mandatory.
Speaker 2:And I'll tell you, at first, honestly, I was like, oh, this is gonna be crap. You know, I'm gonna have people coming in here screwing around, not wanting to be here, and I kind of resisted it at first. But you know, it's like and I do pretty much tell them look, I really don't, I'm gonna, I don't know hope, I don't give a shit if you come here or not. Okay, you could leave if you want. I'm not, I'm not gonna squeal on you, because I said I have only one requirement If you come here, respect those who wanna be here. It's real simple. If you feel like you gotta talk, screw around, just leave, go back to your cab but I won't squeal on you.
Speaker 1:I promise I cause this curiosity. I did a big book workshop at Avenus and you could tell we're following instructions from it. I did the same thing. Hey, if you don't wanna be here, we need an app. Just take a, take a nap here, just don't snore, yeah, but check out, man, if you don't wanna be in here. I'm not selling Cadillacs, I'm just. We're just reading a book. I'm gonna tell you exactly what it means.
Speaker 2:I love it and that was it, that's it and you know what it does. It does. It's a curiosity and like now I believe, and from what I've been told, it's like the most popular group up there and I love that people again from 20 to 60 and 70 are just taking it in. I just keep the open mind right and, like at the end of the doctor's opinion, some of you maybe came to scoff, but now you may hopefully remain to pray, like maybe you came here thinking what is this voodoo, this crap, this religious crap, this cult stuff? So maybe you came to scoff, okay, but hopefully you'll stay and pray, you'll just keep the open mind and just keep coming back and then just saying holy and make that connection, that holy crap. Like these two guys are me, I'm them and you know what they're telling me, that they did this and changed their life. Maybe I should do that and I love doing it. And also to give it's just not the 12 steps, just not the book. I'm sorry, aa, I should say that's five days a week, but they offer other alternatives like of programs, because then we need something when we get out of here.
Speaker 2:The clinicians are gone out of our lives, so we need some programs. So they have NA on alternative days. They go alternative to the big book. Big book is five days a week. They have Dharma okay, they have Dharma recovery. I've been going to Dharma Okay, they have Dharma. They have smart recovery okay, and then they have NA. So what Brookdale? To their credit, they also have alternative avenues, but things that we need. When we leave here, when we leave the bubble of treatment, so to speak, we need these some sort of fellowship programs, and they offer those, which is, I think, well way beyond what other inpatient facilities do.
Speaker 1:They're doing a really good job. I was just there for a visit.
Speaker 2:Can? I saw you.
Speaker 1:It's just, yeah, it's the quality of staff, the grounds, the programs being used, the content in the programs. It's just impressive, it's very impressive. So, and to note this, here we are, we're marketing shields.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that. I appreciate that because it's important that it doesn't get out there and that's why I'm always glad to promote and I'm always glad to tell my story, because my story is my story. It's who I was Okay, it's not who I am today. I like to think that I am. I know that I'm not that person. I like to think I'm a pretty good dude these days. I was saying I'm not Gandhi by any means, but I'm a pretty good guy these days, yeah you're a good guy.
Speaker 1:You've helped a lot of people, pat. I've watched it. You've helped me. I came lumping back in here. You saw it swollen head. We came around just piggybacked off the same amount of time coming back. You're very helpful to me. I appreciate it. Shields one last note shields Are there in the region. Are there meetings? Not to say where there are, but are there informal meetings? And I wanted to see, is there alumni services that people could reach out?
Speaker 2:One there. There are 100% like I don't know of any. I truly don't know of any Shields based meetings. I've always thought I want to entertain the thought of having that. But what my sponsor and I have done, quick history. We were going, I, for before the pandemic hit I had to go mid going up to Marworth for like five years. Like, yeah, I can count on two hands how many days I missed, because that's what helped me. I had had that. I missed, in fact, the first five years. Then COVID comes along. So they actually called me and said we can you guys come up, you know, one at a time, we'll allow it. And I said, yeah, we'll figure something out. Because we had sometimes we were Outnumbered the patients, like we'd be going up there six, eight strong. You know, you know, seriously, man was crazy but it was awesome. So Called me back within a couple hours. I said you know we're shutting everything down. So like, okay, now what do we do? So John, to his credit, said let's get zoom going. Okay, so we've been having. We've been having is we have a Friday night zoom meeting, 1800 hours? First responders will know that's 6 pm. Okay, 1800 hours every Friday night.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you could post it somewhere, if I could just say it out loud. Yeah, so I'll just say it out loud enough Anybody's gonna listen. We have you can get. I'll give you a two seconds. They get a pen. Our ID number is 410 821 1 4, 1, 4 and the password is 21030. And that's every Friday night, 1800 hours. It's, it's a just an infinite. It's not an aim, it's just an informal time. We get about 20, sometimes 30 people coming on there, shields from all different disciplines Please fire corrections, all the ones I mentioned veterans and we just come on. A lot of Marworth grads, a lot of Brookdale grads, a lot of people just hear about it word-of-mouth and jump on to check it out. Just a bunch of peers hanging out on a Friday night for an Hour to stay sober, one more hour. And you know it's, it's. We've been doing that for like a couple of years now. Probably two and a half years have been doing that. I get the word out for that.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:And now we still go to mark. We're back on a Marworth, but now we have like about 10 people. We do like two-man crews. I have my, my rider die girl is my, my friend, while Kira, two and a half years now sober. There's a side story here.
Speaker 2:Like I've been helping, working with this girl for a long time, I met her in not to matriculate in tomorrow, but met her through Marworth, so many and I to the point where I had a. I had a blocker. She came back to Brookdale and I had a blocker because I said I'm not watching you kill yourself. Oh man, yeah. And then she came out, she, she texted me. She called me from, actually from her daughter's phone and she said if I I'm going to treatment again, if I, when I come out, if I'm serious, will you still help me? They said, of course I will, I'm never gonna abandon you, but I'm not watching you kill yourself. And that was a little over two and a half years ago. So she and she moved to Scranton. Now she's, she's a Marine slash, retired NYPD, she's fireman, you know, and she's she's, she's awesome, she's my rider, she's my partner on Monday nights because she had moved to Scranton. Now she lives in the Scranton area. Congratulations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so she's my rider, die Marworth girl. Now, I mean, as a matter of fact, we're going up tomorrow night, she and I so, but we have like a group of 10, 12 people and we do two-man crews.
Speaker 1:And one, one question I had before I kind of wind down. That's the peer-to-peer and that's where a lot of our long-term, real transformative things happen, be it through the 12 steps as for severe trauma. Clinically how would you describe their approach to it and are they using any techniques that are new or interesting, like EMDR, and Does that continue after you know initial treatment? I've you've been seeing guys pursue in these groups a Deeper dive into trauma, or are they just doing a fourth and fifth step?
Speaker 2:Well, you know it's, it's To you for the first part of the question. That's where. That's where our specialty groups come in. There there is, don has a pro. Don has drawn up and she has actually written a pro. She has a program drawn up that she because that's what she did- in her.
Speaker 1:She identifies the trauma first.
Speaker 2:Yes, Every, every every Tuesday and Thursday, she works on a different base of the trauma therapy. Okay, that's that's what the specialty groups are about. As I said, the small groups, the daily small groups, are more about the clinical stuff. Yeah, okay, and Tuesday and Thursday are trauma dedicated, which is, which is awesome. You know, that's where the deep dive, you did say that.
Speaker 1:I just guess. I wanted to just make that last note too, you know she's.
Speaker 2:She'll admit. She said I can't really do trauma work here because 30 days I certainly not enough to really to really do it. So I just give everybody a little, a little opening open the door a little bit, you know, give them a little food for thought, give them a little start, a little traction and a lot of from what I, from what I've heard from my feedback is a lot of our guys and girls say you know what I'm gonna get? I've got needed, that this is what I need. Yeah, I need to get a therapist along with Working the other things out here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've seen a lot a coupled with 12-step support, then therapy. Once they pick the track in the approach, which there's some interesting ones happening, new and developing ones that People are getting a lot of relief, resolving things that Never stopped. Never stopped the pain or the anxiety, a constant sense that a threat is looming, mm-hmm, it just wouldn't subside, even in like early sobriety.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I'm glad I'm, and if this is even on track. But I know I've seen people I've never been diagnosed with PTSD okay, I don't ever, in doubt, diagnosed with it but I've seen many Combat bats come in and say, look man, I. I came back for my tour and you know I was all messed up but I got into the fellowship, okay, and I worked the steps in my life and that that has been a believed, you know, and it's this Program of ours is amazing. It truly is. It's a blessing and it can take so many things from us, even anxiety, depression, you know, fear, ptsd. It's a relief, you know, because we have that. I'm gonna say it out. They have to have a higher power. I got in my life and I it's a resiliency to.
Speaker 1:I always tell young guys that you know if I'm working with them. They have, you know, an announced extreme anxiety disorder. I mean, can you imagine having anxiety and being alright with it? I'm not saying like let's pretend it doesn't go away, do you? Can you see a space where you could have anxiety and you're still alright? There's a space there and I got offered that Through a lot of step work and and the 11th step, mm-hmm me, that you can be upset, you can be sad, bad things can happen, but I could be a witness of it. I don't have to become it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like that, yeah yeah, yeah, and they certainly don't have to to destroy myself over it either.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we know where the the shields zoom could be found. I will post Brookdale's Website up here. Yeah, is there anything I should have asked you? Maybe I didn't get around to.
Speaker 2:I Think we got it all. I really. I just want to say I really appreciate you coming on me. I hope I did. All right, you know, sometimes you know we'll let the audience greatest. I just kind of shoot from the hip kind of thing. But I, I just how I have is my story, Joe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all I have is what I did and and how I and how I changed, and that is as the result of, as the result of the steps period for me, okay, and all of the clinical stuff that everybody's doing is amazing and I was glad I went. I went to treatment with the open mind, truly open mind. I embraced it and I tell people that don't fight this. Embrace what's going on here, take this, this grace that you're getting, that have a chance to change your life. And and I did that and I'm, you know, I'm a one and done, or, as they say, you know, I'm happy to say that.
Speaker 2:You know, april 12th, 20, 2015, okay, I got called on my crap and I'm a one and done, or, since then, because I surrendered and accepted and said you know what? How can I? I want to change, please help me. There was those, please help me. Those. Those are my words. There was. I've never looked back, joe, thank you, by the grace of God, and that's so. That's what I like to help people and that's what we're told, right, brother? Yeah, we carry the message, we give it away to keep it and and that helps me stay sober.
Speaker 1:That's a great place to start. Please help me.
Speaker 2:Please help me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can learn anything when you're asking that. Well, guys, that's another episode. Pat, I'd like to thank you again for coming on, and I'll talk soon.
Speaker 2:All right, brother, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:I'd like to thank you for listening to another episode of all better. To find us on all better, dot FM, or listen to us on Apple podcast, spotify, google podcast stitcher, I heart radio and Alexa. Special thanks to our producer, john Edwards, and engineering company five, seven oh, drone. Please like or subscribe to us on YouTube, facebook, instagram or Twitter and, if you're not, on social media you're awesome. Looking forward to seeing you again. And remember, just because you're sober doesn't mean you're right.