"Where is Free Will?" with Michael Arcangeletti (LMSW,CADC)

December 04, 2022 JoeVanWie Season 2 Episode 42
"Where is Free Will?" with Michael Arcangeletti (LMSW,CADC)
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Michael Arcangeletti, Executive Director of Clearbrook and Banyan Philadelphia has been working in the field of addiction treatment since 2010. He is a licensed social worker that completed his graduate degree at Marywood University, an undergraduate drgree in Philosophy from Miserordia University and is a Certified Alcohol and Drug Counselor through the Pennsylvania Certification Board.
He has held numerous titles throughout his years in the field, including Residential Tech, Intake Coordinator, Counselor, Clinical Supervisor, and Assistant Clinical Director. Michael joined the Banyan Clearbrook team in November, 2018, and states that his passion for helping others comes from his own personal experience in recovery.

I really enjoy Mike's company and our chats, so to describe this podcast I just wanted to note some of the chapters below, Hope you enjoy the Chat!

7:56How did drug and alcohol treatment get its start?

12:58Where do you see freewill in this?

16:49What attributes of the creator can be identified if there is a creator?

21:00Milgram’s experiment.

28:24What is the role of a “companion”?

32:33What it’s like to not have access to your own self.

36:59What’s the universal thread that works the fastest?

47:10How do you break the cycle of trauma?

53:46The Milgram experiments on obedience to authority figures.

57:47The evolution of the recovery industry.

1:10:40How does an organization that’s new acquire a large treatment center?

You  can also access chapters in the Tab left of Transcript of show.

For more info on Clearbrook please visit the link below,

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Joe Van Wie  0:01  
Hello and thanks again for listening to another episode of all better. I'm your host Joe man we Today's guest is a friend. His name is Michael arcing. Angeletti. Michael is the executive director of Clearbrook in Banyan Philadelphia, and has been working in the field of addiction treatment since 2010. He's a licensed social worker, completed his graduate degree at Marywood University and undergraduate degree in philosophy from Ms. accordia University and as a certified alcohol and drug counselor through Pennsylvania Certification Board is held numerous titles throughout his years in the field, including residential tech, intake coordinator, counselor, clinical supervisor, and Assistant Clinical Director. Michael joined the band in Clearbrook team in November 2010. In states that his passion for helping others comes from his own personal experience in recovery. We're going to talk about today The plan was to talk about clear Brooks modality. And the shifts it's taken in the last couple of years, which are fairly dramatic. But then we veered off because Mike's a philosophy major. And we talk about the bonds of or the boundary of freewill. In terms of addiction, where does it begin? Where does it end? Where is a person's agency even upon entering recovery, when others can have such a powerful influence on what that person's decisions are going to be? So it's an interesting topic, and let's meet Mike. Okay, we're here in studio with Mike, arc Angeletti. We've known each other for probably over 10 years now, easily. And Mike, as I said, in his introduction, is the Clinical Director of Clearbrook. I thought today, Mike could come in. And tell us a little bit about the evolution of Clearbrook through his own perspective, and from what it started as decades ago, grew in into and now was acquired a few years back by a company named bandhan. And I think it'll be an interesting story, because there's monumental changes not only in the real estate, developing it into a campus, and then when banding comes in, came in, you have a huge shift in modalities the way you approach treatment and ideologies. Thanks for coming in.

Michael Arcangeletti  2:52  
Yes. Thanks for having me,

Joe Van Wie  2:53  
Joe. So just a little background, how would you summarize? When you're a person in recovery, and you start working in the field of drug and alcohol, what, what drew you to work in this field?

Michael Arcangeletti  3:08  
Well, it starts with, you know, personal experience. So I actually you know, it's interesting, I got sober a couple of different times in my life, like it started in 2008. And all three times I went to treatment, I went to Clearbrook which is pretty interesting stick with the brand, they put the brand new but ya know, it's you know, your, you know, your typical story alcoholic person from West Side start drinking you know, I mainly in high school earlier, you know, you go the flow of experimenting with other stuff, and you know, little by slow it starts to achieve that relief feeling. And then, you know, that takes hold, but, um, yeah, I got sober one time in 2008. And then new to the process, trying to figure out how to apply these newly, you know, these new perspectives on my life and these principles that are kind of like being shown to me to kind of apply Yeah, and I fumbled with them I screwed up a lot. I couldn't really understand it, you know, I went to school for philosophy so I always was kind of like, you know, you know, like what does like made a decision to turn my will in my life over to the care of God like wait one all right, let's stop who is God right? To will this whole idea of will where does that play into it? And so I was way too focused on ways to kind of really separate myself from any type of process or give myself over to like this ideology that's starting to present itself because I'm just confused. And with that comes a lot of mistakes and then go through the process and but in it I loved conversation, like my whole life like I really, because I had a pretty rough upbringing with kind of what was going on, like, you know that how I was raised and how it was. And so I always very much attached myself to my friends. And the conversations that we would have in the camaraderie and the feeling of acceptance that, yeah, granted that we were, like making a lot of not not the best decisions and doing a lot of crazy stuff. But there was this camaraderie that I know what I'll fail. They accepted me. And, you know, in some weird way, it was like this iron sharpening iron friendships that we had. And I always very much valued conversation in pushing ideas and just this intensity that would happen when you're, you know, 10 beers deep sitting in the cemetery up in West Side at 12. o'clock at night. Ponder in life. Well, it's real. Yeah.

Joe Van Wie  6:01  
And I, it's not to be scoffed at, like, I remember would hear, I would hear a few things like, oh, you can't be people, places, things, get rid of all your friends. You know, that's not the same thing for everyone. And friendships are real for drunks, their adventures, their philosophers, my my addicts and drunks of my time. I wanted that. And I still needed it replaced when you take away booze, but I want to, I want to ask one question there, 2008, I hold where you,

Michael Arcangeletti  6:32  
like 2525 25, this is

Joe Van Wie  6:35  
the first entry and you have this draw to philosophy. Before we go on to Clearbrook, I want to unpack that because we, we've talked a lot. And you said, you know, treatment at this point looks like going to a rehab, you come out of rehab, you go into a peer to peer 12 Step kind of organizations the following support. And you got to make sense of it from here. And in these ideologies, the first three steps, which are kind of fundamental to joining any 12 Step group. The third one says you make a decision. So you have agency, they're assuming at this time, that you can make your own decisions, whatever that means, to turn your will. So now you submit your it's your conscious and willful decision to alleviate yourself of will. What the fuck does that mean? I still have problems. But it's delicate to talk about. So some people get it. And that whatever that means, but I'm not sure if that's real to like, it wasn't enough for me. And I don't think it's bad to question it. I think it's bad to question it. And the way you said it separates, it separates, and you have to find the right people. Can we talk about these ideas? I want to get sober. I don't want to die. But I also don't think I could just not make things make sense and move forward. Right? Like what how did that?

Michael Arcangeletti  7:58  
Well? No, I think so when you think about like drug and alcohol treatment from just like where it gets started, like, like pre temperance movement, you know, way back when like the drunk tanks even before that. There's this joining of morality in alcoholism, where there's this approach that yes, there's the radical understanding of like, the the way in which people are drinking or causing problems in society, and these people need to be removed, because how drunk they're getting what they're doing what's happening, like they can't be in society based on their action. So they have to be removed. And so then there's this like this joining of like a medical approach of like, helping them through it, which is interesting is like, you know, like the Bella Donna treatments that they talk about is like

Joe Van Wie  8:47  
the 20s and 30s and 20s and 30s. And Bella Donna, just for a footnote. It's it's Nightshade. Yes. And it's, it creates hallucinations. It's brutal in high doses, correct?

Michael Arcangeletti  8:59  
Yeah, yeah. And so what's interesting, too, is like, then there's this morality aspect that gets joined with the disease of addiction, right before they could understand it, like the disease of addiction is made this determination somewhere in the 50s and 60s or something like that, but way before it in this is what interests me is that there's this morality aspect that is joined, where the way you drink and what results from it is kind of due to you having a moral deficiency. And if you improve that moral deficiency, therefore you will get better and you will not return and you will not go back to you know your formal life. And it's extremely Christian. You know what I mean it to me it's an extremely Christian thing because, you know, there's this idea of, you know, total depravity that you're born in sin, that you are, you know, like, have this like separateness from God and until you can come to terms with how separate you are and your need for that connection through A mediator, you know, there's, you know, that's the only way you can kind of be relieved in this depravity. And then to have

Joe Van Wie  10:08  
you have this. I just want to interject because a lot of this there's a lot of things swimming here. Yes. The morality piece is this starts in the 1800s. Washingtonians, we see it kind of evolved by the late 1800s into this movement. We Oxford groups, who are practicing early Christianity as a means to help alleviate people of alcoholism. There's some ideas floating around, but they're not in the total zeitgeist of all Americans that alcoholism is a disease, Benjamin Rush, if I could just kind of bring us up to the 20s offers this in an essay that, you know, he takes his word that was, you know, a Swiss physician projected its alcoholism. Benjamin Ross, you know, complements this idea of Yeah, I think it's a disease. There's something beyond will here. So we're still on the third, we're talking about the idea of freewill. freewill is already kind of this definition held by two massive entities that have been swimming through history for about 300 years that convergent to Oxford groups and a and I would say it was Calvinist, and Catholics. Calvinism is really the movement that says you are broken, you're depraved in your beast until you receive God. And this is the move of puritanical movement at that what kind of could paint the lens of the destruction of alcoholism from drinking it. And this gives the idea that something precedes the drinking. It's moral deficiency. This is the language of the late 1800s, we get to the 20s, where you were saying Bella Donna. But now there's this eight outside agents. Bella Donna nightshade, let's give it to the person who is immoral that it will produce some kind of experience of the transcendent. It's not a psychedelic, but it was having a similar effect. Because I think what it does it mutes the frontal lobe like so the sense of self might drop out from you. You have this ego death, possibly that's what the experiences at towns hospital were summarized as these guys are their egos dying. There's something beyond the cure for pain. Their trauma wasn't pleasure. There's more than me. This has gotten now they would interject God at this point. Yeah. Well put your foot on the pedal you. Why did that work? Why do you think that works? And if it's working, is it the same language is if like, where do you see freewill in this because we talked about this we have similar ideas on freewill.

Michael Arcangeletti  12:57  
Yeah, I mean, to me, I, I believe we have the ability to make choices like they were free in regard to kind of producing agency in a moment. But there is a there is an order. That is like a ultimately, like I have to start with this, it comes down to where you were like where you fall on an idea of God and what you believe there. Because if you believe that there is a Creator, the universe, who created all things, who sustains all things, who set this thing in motion, then you have, you know, a foundation to kind of really spring to truthfully answer this. So I don't believe things are completely this deterministic. Hume, like David Hume kind of cause and effect. Like, there's some capacity, but I do believe that there is a underpinning of purpose and truth that exists that can be found in God, but then to put to answer your thing about like, free will. I think what an alcoholic, I think that's the most defeating thing. I think it's very apparent because people who suffer from alcoholism and substance use, they're extremely feeling people like they feel their environment, they're very intelligent, they have an ability to just perceive a lot and sometimes it's over. overstimulation at times of just like experiencing the world that is around them in the pain and suffering that is, is a truism like suffering exists, you're going to suffer Yeah. And, you know, you want to be able to alleviate it and you want to be able to combat it. And here comes your free will. It's just like, you know, like, pull your bootstraps up, exert more effort, you know, or hide and use this substance and to do so choices. So it's a pattern in alcoholics that just like you know, when you know, to kind of like sprinkling some of the reality of like trauma there. It happens like consistent thread in everybody I spoke to, since my time and being a clinician and working with patients is that there is some level of upbringing traumatic events that people experience that are too much for them to handle at the time. And it's always something that they go back to as this like, formulated thing. So in response to that, they kind of exert their will to achieve relief achieve, you know, understanding or at least just to cope with it, and then then starts the cycle, because then it works for a little while. But then when addiction takes hold, and you start to develop a tolerance, and then you start to need more and more of a substance to achieve a desired effect, as all this stuff starts going, you start placing yourself in more risky situations that you normally wouldn't. And then you start doing things that go against your character, because anything that you felt as if were you, then you start to compromise that and then you start feeling guilty, and then you have shame. And then here we come into this morality problem of like, I'm doing things that I know I don't agree with. But now I'm doing things that are causing trauma, not just to me, but to other people. And now this cycle develops. So yes, in some capacity, the only type of approach that was seemed to be necessary or truthful, is this morality. Fixing

Joe Van Wie  16:34  
and it was the language, the only language kind of Yeah, it was being offered to reach common ground between all people, especially with 30s, the the emergence of AAA out of the Oxford group, yeah, there was a few things I want to go back pressure. You know, I wasn't as an atheist, I would describe myself as an atheist to the gods that do exist. But I was telling you, I was hedging out when I'm telling you not that they're like our comes, razor or you No, I'm, I also accept at the same terms, I'm basking in a sea of ignorance. So it makes me curious. And the third step, when you're saying there is a Creator, it was hard for me to go there. But what attributes of the Creator can be identified if there is a Creator? And when did this creator become irrelevant if other things weren't conscious, to even acknowledge? The who's the Creator? Like were dinosaurs even doing like, what was going on? It's just a sea of monsters and dead planets. And then we arrived at what's the relevance until we arrive? Granted, there's alien. So if the Creator like just from, you know, it's not saying the evidence is true, we're looking at the expansion of what we're calling the material world seems like a simple process, the more we understand it, like it was just an expansion or an emergence of, of things coming here, how complex is the creator, if you have to all you had to do in in the origins of being the catalyst that he just moved every little piece deterministically to become human, the human mind to develop in this universe. So this is where I'm swimming in a sea and an hour meeting, I'm in withdrawal. This is where my mind focuses, while I might, you know, I can't open mail. I am in pain. And I'm not saying that, Oh, just submit this is the logic. But my mind will go there. And I think it's a fair place to go if you're, you know, free thinking person. But you also I also have to measure, how much time do I have left before I get I die? And do I have this disorder, I do have this disorder. Guess I can't solve it by myself. My tolerance between those first three steps we're talking about had to grow enormously, or I was gonna separate myself from the people I knew were sober. And that was my spiritual awakening the beginning of it. I'm going to tolerate what other people are saying, because I'm a I'm a hypocrite. I'm in pain. I don't know how to help myself. That was the willingness. But when we talk about free will, and I think we kinda are on the same page is that free will, the way I was taught about it, and grew up and the culture and the time that I happened to be alive? Is that free will is this this American thing meaning Catholicism that did total determination over your future is on your shoulders. You're in this cosmic kind of theater where you know you can even couple it with New Age stuff like the secret the law of attraction, but I could just make this a fucking funhouse. For myself. As if there's no agency in any other person or variables or the environment in which you live it like it can't influence you against your will. I wasn't taught freewill that way. So freewill Isn't this place where I could just have an avatar and build a map and then enjoy my life. Not everyone has the same variables of free will. And that's a cruel thing to say. And I don't think a lot of people like hearing that because you're not born into the same. Not only opportunities, the limited choices, what is trauma, or the response to trauma due to someone who doesn't respond to trauma in the same way, kind of, where's the will? Is there an agency we all start with, and we could be in control of our minds equally the same way? It's a farce. So I, when we were talking, the third step for me is allowing agency other people's possible agency to affect me, because it's not going to harm me. And it was a trust, it was a leap of faith that I am not alone. Let someone influence you.

Michael Arcangeletti  20:46  
With them with the understanding that it we're going in a positive direction. Yeah, like we're lining up with the same direction, we're aiming towards good, we're aiming towards a positive and at some level, whether I know what that is, or not right now, I'm trusting this community, that's gonna walk me through that direction. And you're 100% Correct. When you start, like getting into this, like environmental kind of analysis of not necessarily just AAA in getting better. But just in general, like I was just reading last night about this very, like interesting experiments called the Milgram experiment, this guy, Stanley Milgram, he really wanted to prove, or at least understand the people who worked at the doors of the concentration camps that all people, yeah, and just try to understand like how a person could kind of give themselves over to an authority figure, to do something as heinous as what that is. And so he set up this experiment where there was a person that was sitting across from them that was hooked up to these electrodes. And then there was a subject that was brought in, that would have control over the amount of voltage and it started at like 15 volts, and it went to like 450 volts

Joe Van Wie  22:03  
like fate, you would have to interpret it, it's fatal. Right? And

Michael Arcangeletti  22:07  
so this was a person that was brought in to kind of control this in so they had to ask the person who's hooked up to the electrodes questions in if they got them wrong, they had to shock them. But then there was a person that was an authority figure in a lab coat, that would every time they would, the person would get the question wrong. And then they would have to incrementally go up with a higher voltage when they got up to like 120 volts, the person would get, you know, fearful of what it could do. And then the authority figure would come in and say, You must hit that button, and they

Joe Van Wie  22:39  
would hear the perceived person that's receiving the shocks. Yeah, they have no causality of what they're answering questions wrong.

Michael Arcangeletti  22:46  
But they're part of the experiment too. So like, they're screaming

Joe Van Wie  22:49  
from behind a wall, like where you're at, in that, like, now they're going to super voltage you right? They're hesitating, can this be ethical? Am I harming someone? I don't,

Michael Arcangeletti  23:00  
I don't know. But I have this authority figure over me. He's telling, do this now hit this button, you must hit this button in. And then more often than not, everybody got up to like 450 volts in there doing this. And so he was really trying to, I mean, there's a whole lot of issues with his experiment. Yeah, there's ethical and stuff like that. But he kind of when we're talking about a third step, giving yourself over, right, there's this like, ability to not want to give yourself over to 30 There's this radical individualism that everybody has in no one want our culture and our culture and stuff like that. And it's in its in its paralyzing that time, this radical individualism, but in reality, there's this quest for community or community connection, submission to something greater, like, you know, and whether you assign positive or negative to that, like, all human. Like, that's to me. And again, I'm going to show my hand many times probably in this conversation, coming from like a faith perspective. Yeah, sure, you know, but I think that's ultimately what we've been craving. Yeah, this existence and what this is it is this, this authority figure are this but obvious authorities? It's, yeah,

Joe Van Wie  24:15  
there's a lot in that. And when you left, they would scream, right? Yes. So there are 450 they whacked him once. And I remember this experiment distinctly because it's, it's most frightful. What it says about humanity if you don't fully unpack it, what what is being known by this in the general population here? Are we separate from the cruelty and the nightmare in history that was called Nazis, specially in genocide and extermination? How can this happen who didn't stand up? Was everyone part of this ideology? Well, here's two people in a room tour actors, and one has didn't come there with an assumed an ideology of cruelty or, but man, it tapped into something that seems like the majority of the participants that were, you know, these, the people being studied. You got these variables that are looking like they're dying, the person receiving the shocks, they stopped screaming, they continue shocking some even went, you know, another 1520 minutes is shocking them now there's no screams it's like the person's Dad, do shocking a corpse is this person evil? And that's what the heart I think of the discussion would be philosophically from that there's something strange if someone else can be blamed. We lose a talk or autonomy. And there's an authority and the authority is only established with a lab coat. Like it's just a uniform the light presence of this uniform and wardrobe on another person has alleviated that person of their own responsibility to another to another human beings life. This isn't an afternoon they could have been having breakfast they show up for this experiment they're in. And by the end of it, they don't know if they killed someone. Like it is frightening. To me. If I'm like dreadful and cynical, I'm thinking how many people surrender to the steps. But it's not a conscious, like a fully conscious maybe in the subconscious. What are you surrendering to? Or is it like mine is the initial attraction I'm part of the in group I was in the out group by myself say the outgroups. separateness, I am alone I am I am the maverick dying of alcoholism or drug addiction. I found my in group does this still? Would that be the beginning of why a so powerful in numbers?

Michael Arcangeletti  26:47  
Well, I think right, okay. So another interesting part of that experiment, too, is the person that was like giving the shock when they had a say, give that to like another person to hit the button, their compliance with going all the way to 450 went up to like 92%. But what's interesting is because this guy did a lot of different variables with this experiment, where he, he brought in, say, another individual who was part of the experiment, but like, was affecting the person flicking the knobs. And the second that they disagreed with, where they were going with they offer counterpoint when the guy would step in and say you must hit that button. And when that other person would say, No, he's not going to do that. We're not going to hurt this individual. The person who was in the experiment would more often start siding with that, because someone's finally stood up somebody. Yeah, it's like, oh, wait, wait, we can disagree here. We could we have a choice, we could do that. This choice thing comes in, right. So it's like, you know, like, it's amazing how you could kind of weave in like the freewill thing again, but like, it's, it's the second someone kind of offers counterpoint to something that they feel they have no control over, and you come alive again, and it's like, wait a second, I could kind of really affect things and come into this. And so when you go to meetings, and you start to like, I just really remember, so many, like, bad, bad moments of me being at meetings, and just I'm putting it out there. You know, what I mean? Just really trying to understand like, and just like, you know, people were very tolerant of my want to be just, like, smarter or not just smarter, you are

Joe Van Wie  28:24  
smart. Just like I would you were defending yourself

Michael Arcangeletti  28:28  
directly, you know, but but then you start with the minute you have someone kind of come alongside you, and agree that you need to make this change, you need to take an honest look at what you're doing in your life. And this is like the role of like sponsorship, or the

Joe Van Wie  28:45  
role of was that for you? No, no, no,

Michael Arcangeletti  28:49  
I didn't, I didn't have there's actually works with us. Now. Donnie, Donnie was a guy that just really got me you know, and, and, but then more often than not, it was just like, you know, then, you know, like, like, I remember Nate, Nate and Nate and evidently and Evan are the first people to ever take over your meeting. They're my friend, you know what I mean? And Nate's been my friend for like, the, you should have Nate here. You should be and I

Joe Van Wie  29:13  
haven't talked to Yeah, I would love to have that would be fun. Yeah. We always have we hung out a lot.

Michael Arcangeletti  29:18  
I love I love to do. But you know, it's this somewhat companion that comes alongside you at the right time to kind of like, not just validate the the reality of your life and what your choices have kind of brought you to and to be understanding of what's happened in your entire life to get you to this point, you know, then you start to really start to join into a process where like what you're saying like I feel a part of people are starting to talk language and it's not like you're just drinking the Kool Aid and they're, it's true connection to something that you feel is more purposeful. And so like that's where the minute you start to put things into your life that that create meaning like I'm really big on that, like I love when I hear people just talk about like their family and getting back to being a father or a mother or really just owning the responsibilities that they have. Because it was just so dead end by just choosing to drink and drug and all that stuff when, when purpose and meaning come back to an individual. It's beautiful. And it's there and there's something intentional to it. But then to me, I was like I could just see a loving purpose in in God in those moments of seeing like, like, how lucky are we to get to see a beauty of redemption because that's the core is redemption. So like redeeming you know what I mean? And I think that is part of a third step making a decision or something. This is like, redemption that we crave. It's because we've been separate.

Joe Van Wie  30:53  
It's old. And yeah, I think the most significant story of Judeo Christian or the Bronze Age is the prodigal son. And once that story about its redemption, suddenly, that by all reasonable accounts or logic, this is the son that should be punished, fuck him eat and do the eating, earn his keep? Well, when has he shown love? I guess there is an intrinsic value that just overwhelms me. That's what the fiber life is. What you said earlier, I kind of the ideas that come to my head is that, especially when I have trauma, add, I have anxiety, my first solution and bondings alcoholism addiction. We're all meeting in a place where we're saying addictions, the problem. And underneath this is, you know, could be a whole luggage of problems. But addictions. The first one, we all agreed this this worked for a while. Think a person with my condition, I don't know how to get better by myself. And I don't think you're risking a lot. You can die. Producing no results. Every result I'm turning to to fix myself is failing. And I'm losing heart. My shame is growing. I'm getting beat into the sense that why am I not connecting to what's where people are meeting and getting sober. Irregardless of its Alcoholics Anonymous Dharma recovery, let's just just generalize it for a second. I can't have a full human experience without connection. And the brain is set up for that. What I don't even have access to who I think I am as a full body itself. How many thoughts can you contain at any moment, I can't have access to all my memories. I can't even have access to all the things I prefer or what really happened versus what I wrote as a story in my head, the software in my head. But other people have access to it. Some things that I don't have access to have my own self, think of how interesting that is like, psychologically, to not have that relationships with not only family, but the friends I made in recovery, that could tell me things that I was just completely unaware of about my own personality, the truth of my experience, because some things were so painful, I couldn't admit to me that my own self that my behavior was bad. I was so used to it. So it wasn't like a more in morality. It's like a more moral education. It wasn't like we call it deficiency. And I always hate that term, right? How do you do that by yourself? I think that's where communities are just, this is where we can all agree secularly and then we're changed where we were in the 30s, that the group can be the the beginning of the power. Because they know more about you than you have access to. And you can tell them a lot about you that they can only know by you telling them and then somewhere in there you could be you don't have to be your history. You're baking this every day, a story about yourself and you're attaching shame to it, you're hanging all these other that could end, connect, connecting and then let's decide who do you want to be moving forward? Can you do that? That's, that's for me. That was the faith. How is that not? That's a word God for me. That is God. I mean, I don't know what God could be fully fleshed out to or I why I would have access to an idea of a creator but I was overwhelmed by what I was missing. Apparently missing an A again at 40. It just

Michael Arcangeletti  34:37  
got me well. Well, the question that's begging in my mind is what do you do then? When the return of suffering happens? Because that's something No, because addicts and alcoholics have a low tolerance for suffering. Like at a base level like don't like cute like us. I hope people don't hear me wrong. But what I mean by that is the When, when you get sober when you enter into recovery. Sure, there's that like everybody talks about, like the pink cloud, there's just this relief, that you've accepted the fact that you have a problem. And there's this all these things that come from admitting. And then you might be at the point of like surrendering. And I think that moment of surrender that happens, when someone when it clicks in an individual who understands that, yes, like, I have a problem with drinking, I have a problem with heroin, when it's, that understanding happens, and you surrender to it, it's a beautiful moment to watch happen. And that's like, what I, what, that's what I chase in a conversation with someone is to get to understanding, right, but then what happens is then suffering returns. And people don't have a category for suffering at times, because they internalize it, like, they did something wrong. Or, you know, the Catholic approach that says, you know, what, like, I did on this, and now I'm deserving of this, but no matter what suffering exists, and so suffering returns, and so for someone that enters into recovery, that's part of the the preparation process of like, okay, like, you're gonna have to walk out a life now that things aren't gonna go your way, like, there's a lot of wreckage that you're gonna have to repair, you know, like, nine steps stuff. But then also, there's just like, you know, maintenance of the day to day life of, you know, getting a job losing a job, having a kid figuring out how to raise a kid and just like dealing with that. Maybe it's a death of a loved one, maybe it's someone that you know, really well that you've tried to help that all of a sudden now like, returns and then unfortunately, dies. And there's this return of suffering that happens, yeah, to where now, what you're saying is like, the group could help you through that. But at some level, you need to understand that that exists. Yeah, like, just because you get sober and change your life. Like what that area?

Joe Van Wie  37:01  
What are you saying to correct me if I'm wrong, something else has to be and it can be borrowed. And I'm not saying just a sheer ideology. But are you insinuating that an individual needs a narrative of meaning? And, you know, this can be a story, that life, but that pain is temporary, and the cure for pain is not pleasures that are found in addiction? Like let me just extinguish this with some kind of high or, or what could be indulgence to other people. But since I'm having this pain, the finish line is still worth it. Like yes to to not believe the lie that addiction will solve the pain. The threshold of pain grows, do you see a universal thread and now that we're, we're sharing the same idea of what's the universal thread that gives someone kind of their own muscles, their own tolerance to say, I can be uncomfortable, I can be uncomfortable longer and uncomfortability like in Buddhism, or say like a Dharma recovery approach is, impermanence is the term that happiness is impermanent, all things are impermanent. But what isn't impermanent is awareness. Open awareness precedes identity. Once you're conscious, it precedes concept. Language, which limits how you even think, I think in English, if I'm gonna start using words, so I have this open awareness that you're I am I am, I am the object that is aware. But I'm not separate from how are you separate from what you're aware of? Fucking, it's freaky. And you know, this and philosophy subject object? Yeah. So in that meaning, some people can have a narrative, a script, the religion that's comforting, to be virtuous. That ties into the grand scheme, the story, one story is being told, I mean, in this story that's most western or religions Eastern is that, you know, I've emerged in the story, I'm here temporarily, all things are impermanent. But I can be aware of it. My pain will pass just as fast as my happiness like, and why do I think the future is always going to be better? Like, is that keeping me alive? willfully? What do you see is the thread that works the fastest in you've been a clinician for a while, you've you've been in recovery? What gives people that that autonomy that when they're alone and suffering, that it's not panic? And it's all worth it?

Michael Arcangeletti  39:47  
Yeah. I'll answer that like personally, and then probably, like, more experientially from like working with people and seeing that happen. But for me, that's a huge like, you're saying it correct. li in saying that it's more of a, of a faith based approach or like, what ultimately where do we land on when it comes to ultimate meaning and purpose. And so like, as you were talking, the only thing that was coming to mind was like all things work for good for those who love God and who are called according to His purposes. And I think it is that scripture that Scripture is like Romans 820, or something like that. And it's this truism that if you are called by God, in you are working in accordance with his principles, everything works for good in this this idea of contentment, it could be achieved and that no matter what I'm going through, right now, it's for a bigger purpose. So there's a story of when when they were bringing the Ark into the Promised Land, when Joshua was leading the men, and the priests had to stand in the River Jordan, and when they stayed in there, the waters and move in the people would be able to go across. But think of those priests that are carrying this ark, this heavy thing that has them in the middle of this water in like, I don't know, million people have to walk through and it's like, can you guys kick going quicker, like, hello, I'm holding this heavy thing, right? But God had them there for that purpose to get those people across. In so it's when I see people find purpose in their suffering, is when they build this like callous to to it. Right. So it's, it's, it's understanding that, you know, this just from like, like he was I worked outpatient for a while and like, I unfortunately had to watch some people go through a lot of stuff to get their kids back. Yeah. And that's such a sad, terrible thing, because people get their kids taken from them, because the choices that they make and right or wrong, like probably some people need that other kids take into them that parts of their life and because they're not capable of being parents, but then they get sober and they they just crave so much that redemption of becoming a parent again, in doing that, that they have to go through a lot of processes in setbacks along the way. In no whole time, though. Their goal is to have their kids back into habit. And and so but what happens when they get them back? If that's the only goal, well, then then then you need a new goal. And then like, okay, here we go. You know what I mean? If you place everything in achieving that one thing you're going to always want, you're always going to want

Joe Van Wie  42:28  
I just said, I just wanted to make a note there because I've had goals, and I'd stayed sober for 60 days, the goal was accomplished. Yeah, it's like, sounds shallow. Sounds simple, but it was real. I didn't realize that's all I wanted out of sobriety was some one objective to happen. And when it did, I'm like, well, this isn't sustaining life's dreadful again. I'm uncomfortable and anxious. I've got what I was supposed to get done. Let me take another window of relief. I might not be as successful alcoholic. Boy, I gotta be one today. Yeah, but what do you think I just want to have one question. Because I just heard some programs, what's the best attribute in that window, someone lost their kids. And you're seeing that you see that a lot in detox. What's the best thing as a clinician, you're offering them in the window between there and getting their kids back? And let's maybe break down into two pieces? What's the best attributes to offer them in that pain? Because they're a human being? Addiction trauma to repeating you're trying to interrupt it? Without shame? What would you say those attributes are? And then coupled with? What are you doing clinically to make sure they have a narrative that goes beyond the children? Okay, you get your kids back? What's the what's, what's the big game long game here?

Michael Arcangeletti  43:46  
And that's it? No, no, because it just starts with, to me, the attribute is truth. So it's in timing, to have that conversation of the truth of like a situation in particular, to what you just said, is very crucial, because the amount of guilt and shame that you know, a person has that has addiction. That's, that's probably first and foremost. And so to then, have that attribute of truth in that person to say, because of what you've done, because of the decisions that you made, you've now in your life have placed a substance over the value of your children. Like that's all that's ultimately the, the statement that has to be attacked, is you placed a substance in front of your children, like the most natural instinct that exists in human beings is to is to take care of their offspring to take care of that, like, addiction has now supplanted that and now that's there. But we're poor in trusting in being that guide for that. person to get to that understanding, yeah. has to start with just incremental aspects of truth for them to then start to trust. And then and then and then you could kind of really get to

Joe Van Wie  45:15  
and what are those increments like, okay, because maybe I've heard people say this, you have to they personify alcohol as a mind disease my this this as if it's, it's with them. It's separate. It's up to its own agenda. Carl Jung called it the shadow self kind of that lives within us. But you're saying these increments is the increments? Because there's, there's shame attached when you put something before your kids. And this is an objective truth. I guess you did. Right. But who did? Who did this? The PERT and then like, that's the story, right? That's the increment. Who are you? Right? You showed up somewhere and you got hurt. Not saying they should identify as a victim and we were talking about that earlier. Want to interject that? I don't think that's what you were saying either. Yeah. I don't like to put somewhere you got hurt. Is that kind of the little breadcrumbs? Are you leading back to maybe an original

Michael Arcangeletti  46:11  
hurt? Yeah, I mean, I believe in really like you. When it comes to therapy. When it comes to working with somebody, you gotta like, start with the present. And you're like working into wager, you're working backwards. But you're also trying to get them to understand like, where the present gets them to where they gotta go. But to me, it's like, when you understand your history, when you understand your patterns, when you understand your upbringing, when when you could resolve some of those things, all of a sudden, you could start to move forward. So yeah, I think you're not creating the victim by looking like having a person go back to understand they had an alcoholic father, that all they call them was shit for brains, I can't do anything, and that you're just going to be a failure in everything that happened in their upbringing, you know, these narratives that happen that you start to believe Yeah, you know, like, yeah, you know what, that suck, you have to find it that talk to you that way that instilled those beliefs that you said, you're just a shift for brains. And now here, you are constantly wondering if you're going to be good enough in a moment. And you always look at a couple it

Joe Van Wie  47:11  
with this, I have a brother two years older. Or I'm saying like in this example, that we were saying, that same kind of scenario, but I have a brother who's not an alcoholic, so I really must be a piece of shit. And I guess it starts with trauma not being the event. It's the response that individual's brain has to it. And the clearer I'm seeing this story, you correct, correct me to if I'm wrong. It's like this neural net pathway shows up in the brain that makes it habitual to for anxiety to tell these narratives. So there's like this weird cognition, like which one precedes each other. And I think that's the, the interesting stuff we talked about, in the first half of this, that something's more powerful than cognition that you could tap into. It's just like group consciousness. Right? And it can change your thoughts. But my thoughts are on autopilot. I am uncomfortable. I tell the story. The story ends in the same way, go back to a drug or drink. Is that is that start from trauma? Is that how, like, how do you clinically look at that, like? Yeah, I mean, it doesn't look like it's always freewill. Like, it's impulse, you got an eighth of a second to respond to an obsession to drink. I'm not even saying withdrawal, right? I've always heard this fact thrown on me. So have you? Yeah, what does that look like? Like over an eight year skill? Is this person really acting out of freewill? Or are they are they on a hamster wheel neurologically

Michael Arcangeletti  48:48  
something needs to then interject in that moment to kind of really break the cycle. But yeah, like the cycle of trauma that a person kind of spins on is this, you know, this representing of the event that kind of really brings things to mind and all of a sudden, they're really feeling it and they're like, in the event or their, their body is like constantly perceiving the world around them as a threat, like think about to Yeah, yeah, you know, like, you know, um, you know, the wife that was always getting hurt by the husband or like physically and so like constantly everywhere they look there's always this idea of a threat come in, but then more like, you know, to relatable to me, like being an addict alcoholic, just like this just fear of withdrawal, you know, and there's always this perceiving dread of just I'm going to be sick, I need to get better I need how's this gonna go? And there's just this consistent pattern of just like, pain relief, pain relief, but it's not good. It's not there. Then ultimately, something has to interject to really stop the cycle. But how do you do that into compassionate understanding?

Joe Van Wie  49:54  
Individual is that was usual way

Michael Arcangeletti  49:57  
you know, and I think that's the delicate art. Oh, Have of counseling and clinical is to really walk that line of I know where you are. I understand where you are, I think based on what we talked about it, it makes sense to get to this point in life. And I understand that, but where you are is not where you could be, and where I see you, you know what I mean? And so like, there's this, like, compassion that happens. And that's what worked for me like my first like, radical compassionate guy that really Yeah, like, you know, Stan, you know what I mean? And

Joe Van Wie  50:31  
he's, yeah, he's, he's,

Michael Arcangeletti  50:32  
he's special. He's a special guy. And he still is like, like, a lot of

Joe Van Wie  50:38  
fans, a counselor from? Yes, yeah,

Michael Arcangeletti  50:42  
he's retired now.

Joe Van Wie  50:42  
We're finally getting around to clear.

Michael Arcangeletti  50:45  
Yeah. But you know, like, those are the things that I see. That helped woke me up. But then also, you know, what, stick with me to then work with a person to try to get that what you're saying to happen, you know,

Joe Van Wie  51:02  
I'm coming around to clear work. And I think we could talk about ClearPass modality if we could like for about 15 minutes, but the one thing you just said, and it's an out of interest, it's a question of interest. I guess this is where we were saying, figuring out on an individual pathway, you hear this story, and how people this interruption happens. At the level of care, you call this stabilization, detox and interruption to an act of addiction. Now, addiction could be in early stages, late stages, but the scenario you're describing fight or flight, the world's a threat, this is an attribute of all late stage Adric diction, it's like a inflamed amygdala, I am seeing all narratives, but there's a cognition in that if someone really could go back and see that you have to tell your story to your mind, you're baking something in your mind, where the threat is gonna come from, I see a microphone, it can be subconscious, or I see that person's Look, I know what they're up to. I know, this is they know, these are cognitions that happen, right? But this is, if your amygdala is inflamed, like, where's the choice being made, like inflamed is maybe a wrong word, but it's hyperactive, and it's looking for threats. This is late stage you interrupt? Well, you know, everyone needs a couple different tools, depending on and this is probably where your modality has colleagues, you do this in clinical meetings. It's not like shooting from the gut all the time, right? Are you guys all meaning as clinician saying, I think this approach, even though it's not the approach we would do to Bobby, for Susie, I think we're going to we can challenge her a little more, is that like, kind of a group thing?

Michael Arcangeletti  52:48  
Well, that's where treatment exists today. Like you got to understand, like, there's been, like, you know, from the Minnesota model to like, where treatment world exists now. You know, they're like, there's a lot that would you say, the Minnesota model was the Minnesota model is a 12 step approach to treatment. So, you know, it's basically taking what happens in a, the principles of a, with a cognitive behavioral approach, and really just interjecting that into a treatment center. Okay, you know, and so that's kind of, you know, that's where you have to do first step, you have to do your first step and treatment, yes, everything I experienced everything. So that's the Minnesota model No, no, for better or for worse, or what it is, it's there. But like, you know, there's this still like, underlying thing, in my opinion, of where kind of treatment is on its trajectory now, is that when it comes to that approach, there's this like, you have to instill fear in an individual to get better.

Joe Van Wie  53:46  
Reference we're speaking of the Milgram experiments on obedience to authority figures. There were a series of social psychological experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram, and measured the willingness of study participants 40 men in the age range of 20 to 50. From a diverse range of occupations, with varying levels of education to obey an authority figure, who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience. Participants were led to believe that they were assisting in an unrelated experiment in which they had to administer electric shocks to a learner. His fake electric shocks gradually increased to levels that would have been fatal. And they've been real. The experiment found unexpectedly that a very high proportion of subjects would fully obey the instructions with every participant going up to 300 volts and 65% of them going up to the full 450 volts, which would have been notified that it was fake could be fatal. Milgram first described his research in a 1963 article in the Journal of abnormal and social psychology, and later discussed his findings in greater depth in his 1974 book, obedience to authority, and experimental view, like and I discuss this a little more.

Michael Arcangeletti  55:21  
So it's like, you need to accept that you're powerless over the substance, Sergeant drill, drill sergeant right in, in, you either need to be shamed to understand that powerlessness or do that. Because if you go back to that, you know, which is true in that, like, if you tell a heroin addict, like you're going back to, like, you're gonna die. And you know what, that's true. Like things that exist right now you use again, you don't have that, like probability, probability. But there's this like, built in, like, thing when it comes to like the Minnesota model of like, you have to establish a fear of going back to the substance in order to like, accept it, and go, right, but so now, like with treatment, when understanding, like more like, like a person centered approach, trauma informed, going this individualized thing, that might not work for everybody, like people have a problem with authority, people that just struggle with, right, right? Because like, if you tell someone you can't do that, and you're gonna, like, what are you gonna do? Like, don't think about an elephant? Don't think about an elephant? I see a pink one right now. I mean, I am counter will Yeah, you're just generally counter with the antagonists, you're gonna, you're gonna want that. So that approach wouldn't work for Joe van, wie, you know, we need to kind of really approach like, how do we kind of help him here? How do we do that? And so yes, treatment today is about that. It's, it's obviously more standardized, when it comes to like the medical aspect of, you know, there's detox protocols, there's certain levels of medications that you do, like sort of someone that's coming off benzos how you kind of really, what substance used to detox someone there. But to answer the question, it's yes, I think, treatment in general, as it exists now, it's like, rather than trying to make people fit into a mold, it's more like, let's make this mold fit around the individual, you know, and yeah, that's it. That's it, there's a lot of value. And there's a lot of truth in that, you know, that was

Joe Van Wie  57:18  
all new to me. And I kind of got more of an understanding what the term individual approach means. It's, it's a term that means something. And it helped me tremendously. You know, if I could quickly summarize this, the idea of Clearbrook I think it's been around since the 50s. Because that's, I don't want to hold

Michael Arcangeletti  57:44  
the seven knees.

Joe Van Wie  57:47  
No, I probably said in the intro. But, yeah, this is decades. And then in the 80s, there's, you know, a big chieftain comes in or recovery. Chieftain nickel Angele. Yes, and Nicola Angel, you know, transform that place visually. Ellison optically philosophically numbers and built a campus, yes. Like, it looks like a college campus up there. And that was gross. It was huge. It was a big footprint here, it was able to put what was seemingly showing up like these health care models, a very developed and dignified place to stay good food, their kitchen improved, and the model. He builds this up. And then it's bought and then a new evolution takes place. And, and it's funny because Nix Nix changed a lot of his ideas even in the recent because society changes, language changes. Technology changes, I guess it changes us somewhat to Yeah. Or how so? I guess we can we pick up right there. Banyan Banyan comes in Banyans, this company from Florida, this fresh startup of this like really unique story of a couple individuals, one entrepreneur, someone in recovery. We start with a sober house in Florida and immediately after, like, just this initial team has built an organization rises up, have a really ethical, modern, and a medically assisted treatments being applied. With a really strong philosophy, which I believe in comes to our backyard and watch very, this is a big change from 12 Step guys. Next classic man. Yeah, you call it at midnight, you could get a guy in there at midnight. Right? Like, that's, that's profound. And that's so now being in comes in, you become the Clinical Director. How much have you changed in that period, what did you What did you have to change about what you believed in? And why did you?

Michael Arcangeletti  1:00:06  
So now the answer is actually goes to honestly roughly around like 2014 I've been holding off on Correct. I'm the executive director. That's fine. I know I hate doing that right now. I feel like whatever. But no. Okay, so yeah, and my idea of what clever like, you know, I was a patient and Kubrick three times getting silver. Last time was in 2010, I come back, I go to the Salvation Army, I get out of that. My best friend's Joe Kane, he's working there, gets me a job in the kitchen. I work in the kitchen, then I become I've become a tech there. And it's just like, everything is really like coming to mind. Like at one point in our conversation, yes. Like what got me into this field, it's, it's those moments of like, connecting with people trying to understand like how to work this out with a person have a recovery. So I left there, and I went to outpatient I work in an outpatient place for six years. But right around 2014, is when suboxone emiti starts to become this push is like Medicaid and things like that. And I had to really confront my bias of like, wait a second, we're gonna give a medication right now to help an individual who's suffering from something that this acts in the same way. I was very rudimentary in my understanding what that mean, I had no idea the pharmacology of what a partial agonist is what that does, you know, what that means to kind of really harm reduction approach, like the whole purpose and validity and how that truly helped someone was lost me. And that time, because philosophically, I'm like, go to meetings, you know, like that type of approach.

Joe Van Wie  1:01:52  
These base variety is only or recovery was this term that is intellectual property to a kid. Yeah. And it's only abstinence. This is starting to be the foundation of this belief for us being shaken, shirted. Correct.

Michael Arcangeletti  1:02:09  
Yeah, and so like, but then I started, like, so like, that happened in like, 2014, for me, where I really started to see like, man, like, how do I? What's my idea of someone getting better? What does better look like? And what's his definition of recovery? And, you know, like, that's this kind of fluid thing for a person. And I slowly started like, really seeing that. You don't want man like this. This is true to help someone like using an MBT having that like, and there's nothing wrong,

Joe Van Wie  1:02:41  
the first thing that caught your eyes. So you're you're part of a structure that's going to be doing this, but you personally have to, you have to recognize reconcile this. Are they right? You got this? If I had to guess it's two lanes happen in here the metrics of recidivism or relapse within a year, with or without the MIT for this kind of same case scenario, I would say. And then really questioning, are we all finding recovery? What is recovery? For all of us? What if you were seriously sexually abused for the first 10 years of your life? What if you were born into poverty? What if you had violent trauma? Is the bar the same for that person as someone who has addiction and like, we gotta grow up? Yeah, like, we're not this isn't a fucking metric for all of us. And it's

Michael Arcangeletti  1:03:30  
a first order secondary third, like an order problems and what you do like, it's like the onion approach of like, you start putting things away, and it's like, alright, like this medication to help someone get to the point of producing healing and getting there. And so that's what I've, like, I started seeing play out and then you couple it with the fact that like, I'm close with a lot of people who overdose and die. And it's like, oh, my gosh, like, if they, you know, if they had this, what if, you know, he just don't know. And it's a bridge in so yeah, so to get to like, right. So that's what kind of started shattering that idea of like, what it means to get better. And I grew my understanding of recovery, grew my understanding of treatment, started expanding my knowledge of how to help people, treatment modalities, things like that, you start to improve, you know, and that's what's really started to impact my, my framework of looking at these approaches, because it's, you know, it seems to work and then Alright, so now we're in 2018, northeastern Pennsylvania, you know, like this jewel of like recovery in our area, which is which is like Clearbrook was this is the standard in our area on many levels for many years and has touched the lives of like our Lackawanna, Luzerne Wyoming County area.

Joe Van Wie  1:04:51  
It's covered 30 Jersey here. I mean, it was Yeah, I mean, of was enormous,

Michael Arcangeletti  1:04:58  
enormous and when it means and it's the personalities and it's the people that like, you know, so many people are coming to mind that made that place special. And what it is and even today, what continues to make it special is the people that like I get to be with. And so yeah,

Joe Van Wie  1:05:16  
I think it's coming to we're coming from but like it was almost like showbiz like, like the Las Vegas, right. And what I mean by that is let me let me describe that the personalities of recovery, Michelangelo's larger than life. Yeah. And to still be friends and I have a report I know you do with with him as a he's, it's odd that he's treating me like a friend. And we're talking and he's so insightful telling me these a lot of things I don't understand, and how this evolved, like a bit of a being a field or an industry. But then you have Lille and decarnin Boy, and I can name you could just keep going down the list of from bikers to, you know, preppy elites, and you had such a cast of characters, there was no one you couldn't find on that property to relate to and say, may or may not be like this person, I could find some distinction guy there. But there's someone that Clearbrook that you'll say, Holy fuck, that's me. Right. That's me.

Michael Arcangeletti  1:06:26  
And so like, right, and at some level when, you know, the transition happened in 2018, I think it was met with this kind of anger from the community, you know, because it was like this, this jewel of the Northeast recovery that all of a sudden, is being like villainize so to say by this, like, these people we don't know, from Florida, getting them, you know, like, now like taking this, like, Who are these people, but meanwhile, they're genuine, they're authentic. They care about people getting better. They have, they have a philosophy and model that is working in it was like Clearbrook was Banyans first purchased, you know, and so that was the facility that, you know, kind of really started, you know, Banyans growth, like, as of today, there are 15, soon to be 16 Banyans, in the course of being in facilities in the course of my four or five Irish years where, you know, so like, it's it's it's an approach that's working, but it's,

Joe Van Wie  1:07:28  
and they tell their name, Mike just Yeah. I was on your website. And I was curious. I didn't know that. Like, I'm just catching up. There's clear Brooks logo, but then said Clearbrook, Massachusetts, with someone and I was like, Oh my God. It's a great name. Yeah. Yeah. So Banyans, leading, impatient and detox. Are they is it only two facilities with the Clearbrook name?

Michael Arcangeletti  1:07:51  
Right. There's one of Massachusetts and there's the one that we're at. Yeah. And

Joe Van Wie  1:07:56  
are you both the same levels of care as a detox inpatient?

Michael Arcangeletti  1:08:00  
Correct? Yeah. And then they they do mental health primary at the Massachusetts as well. So

Joe Van Wie  1:08:05  
dual diagnosed core abilities, serious Generalized Anxiety Disorder, if this is established, would you preferably go up to Massachusetts is that oh, yeah, yeah, I have a bipolar disorder

Michael Arcangeletti  1:08:17  
and addiction and and even with that, like, those type of things like we're, we were more than capable of, like treating that like where we are to because like, the amount of like, clinical resources that we kind of provide for people right now can more than meet those needs. But like, if you're saying like someone that's mental health primary, then yes,

Joe Van Wie  1:08:34  
that primary and what will be primary personality disorder.

Michael Arcangeletti  1:08:37  
I mean, that's part of addiction, like those things are there but if you're more along the lines of someone that has like, like I say, we have an eating disorder specific program, so if that was like a primary thing you would do that, but if it's someone that has like true like schizophrenia, you know, dissociative disorders, things like that likes people that suffer with like, high suicidality, that are risks like cutters, things like that, we could Yeah, they have the ability to treat that there. But that like that goes in with this like approach. So like, like, my boss has this like cliche saying that he always says like, you do the right things for the right reasons that right things happen in embedded is that is like, right, but embedded is that is this true, genuine, authentic approach to meeting the needs of an individual meeting the needs of a facility where you treat them with dignity, worth and respect, and you try to do the best that you can to create that environment for both the individual and the worker. Then success will follow for people getting better, you know, in in those, those are the people these people that came in this is truly how they are and then so like navigating, that changed there because like, like it's just crazy, because because Joe Kane like gives me this suggestion to like, Hey, throw your name in for a hat for a position there in like 2018 You, and I take it and I go there, right? And so it's like, right in the midst of this change. And then 50 5060 days into Joe's, like I'm leaving, he's going to like, here I am with all these, like, my gosh, like Anna is still there, Sharon. So like, all of the big people that are clear, Brock, you know what I mean of this, like where, you know, are still there. And it's like, you know, and we're navigating where the change has to occur. So like, I'm, I'm thrust into that environment of knowing, you know, where we need to go. And then battling kinda, you know, ideologies in a way or what it is.

Joe Van Wie  1:10:40  
So yeah, how does how does an organization that's new acquires a beautiful, large treatment center? How do modalities change? Because you're changing, like you said, ideologies, this is different. It's like it's an invasion. It's a foreign invader comes in, and we're not going to tolerate your religion here. It's, it's old bronze age. Yeah, if we had a look at that kind of narrative, but how to how does an enlightened group of people come in and change the modality? So it seems resistance always leaves you to have the option to resign? Or leave in a fruit free society? But what do you think would change you to believe the modality, this, this fits, I like this, and it seems to be reaching more people. And

Michael Arcangeletti  1:11:34  
that's exactly it. It would, I wouldn't even know if it was a change. It's just me with a belief that I have to show care and concern to people to help them get better. And to do that, and to understand that, like, that's, that's a fundamental value that is shared by Banyan by the people that are there just like to help people like to get better in an ethical, authentic way. Right. It allows me to believe in the mission, so to say, Yeah, and I think over time, it was kind of like this Pruvit thing where I think the people that were there like and honestly, yeah, like a HANA people left like a ton, you know, and then there's like, a, we always do, yeah, they always place Yeah. And that happens in this industry, like, what it what it is for the time that it happens, but then, over time, of being consistent of really trying to take this process to be innovative, to try new things to accept someone that like, you might have been risk, like thinking that might have been risky to take because they they present a little bit more mental health needs, or are we going to take a service dog are we gonna do like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, can't with Xbox with these little things. You know what I mean? There's TVs in the rooms now it's like, Oh, man. I mean, what are we doing? You know, like, you control the TV, it's you shut them off, like during clinical time and

Joe Van Wie  1:12:55  
you only show a&e, right,

Michael Arcangeletti  1:12:56  
right. Right? Yeah, no, but like, so

Joe Van Wie  1:13:00  
if I want it to go up to detox and just tested for stay there. 12 hours? Is this the right detox? Well, I'm gonna leave with every place that comes here. All the details. Okay, we got to the hour and I wanted to talk about more. I want to talk about Gestalt when you come back. Yeah. We have you and Joe just have a head off. We'll just stall to each

Michael Arcangeletti  1:13:27  
other. Okay. Okay. I like that.

Joe Van Wie  1:13:29  
You need to deal with this in this moment. No, like the Spider Man's just the three Spider Man's pointing at each other. Yeah. But I wanted, I was really happy for you to come on, because I wanted an update. You know, I don't know who listens to my footprint. Clearbrook. I wanted the story to be told because the the word on the street now and jargon is that the changes are now producing a result that people are paying attention to. And ideologies are changing, because the problems are a little different. Not I'm not saying alcoholism is different. I'm saying society's different. Fentanyl is different fentanyl doesn't allow many people to get to late stage addiction. It kills you if you're in it. And then if you're starting an addiction, you're not going to have the wiggle exploratory window that we had in high school with narcotics pot and alcohol. That's a different The response has to be different. Yeah. And our understanding just has to be broader. Yep. And I like individual paths because that's called there's a Liberty there's a freedom and it's not an authoritative approach. Because I fucking resist man. I resist anything. I can be done. I can give you the finger. Kind of like it. I don't want to lose a little part of that adventure. I always

Michael Arcangeletti  1:14:53  
you would not have hit that shock button. You would have been like no, I would. Yeah,

Joe Van Wie  1:14:56  
give fuck pow. Let's dance. Awesome dude. What cuz you're telling me because you got a lab coat on your creep now? Well, Mike it's great catching up. I'm glad we got to nerd out a little unwell. Yeah. I'll see you soon. Yes sir. I'd like to thank you for listening to another episode of all better. You find us on all or listen to us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts Stitcher, I Heart Radio and Alexa. Special thanks to our producer John Edwards, an engineering company 570. Drone. Please like or subscribe to us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram or Twitter. And if you're not on social media, you're awesome. Looking forward to seeing you again. And remember, just because you're sober, doesn't mean you're right.

Transcribed by

Introduction to Mike.
What drew you to work in the field of recovery?
How did drug and alcohol treatment get its start?
Where do you see freewill in this?
What attributes of the creator can be identified if there is a creator?
Milgram’s experiment.
What is the role of a “companion”?
What it’s like to not have access to your own self.
What’s the universal thread that works the fastest?
What’s the best attribute to offer a parent when they’re in the window between getting their kids back?
How do you break the cycle of trauma?
The Milgram experiments on obedience to authority figures.
The evolution of the recovery industry.
The personalities at Clearbrook are larger than life.
How does an organization that’s new acquire a large treatment center?