"Entheogens"with Dr. Tiffany Griffiths

May 28, 2022 Joe Van Wie / Dr. Tiffany Griffiths Season 1 Episode 26
"Entheogens"with Dr. Tiffany Griffiths
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Dr. Tiffany Griffiths is a licensed clinical psychologist who has private practices in Clarks Summit, Dunmore, Exeter, Peckville, and Kingston, PA. She is from the Scranton area in Northeastern Pennsylvania where she received her bachelor’s degree from the University of Scranton. She went on to pursue her doctorate in clinical psychology at the Illinois School of Professional Psychology in Chicago. She chose to specialize her education and training in the area of diversity. Dr. Griffiths’ internship experience was gained at Chicago’s Loyola University where she worked at the University’s Counseling Center providing outreach, evaluations, therapy, and supervision to students, faculty, and staff. Her internship class at Loyola was the first to become accredited by the American Psychological Association. 


Since receiving her doctorate and starting her group practice, Dr. Griffiths has become a qualified Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) instructor. In addition, Dr. Griffiths is very interested in the healing potential of Entheogens and is currently enrolled in the Psychedelic Therapy and Research Certificate program through The California Institute for Integral Studies (CIIS). 

 As a humanistic psychotherapist, Dr. Griffiths believes in the innate potential for human growth. It is her goal to provide an unconditional environment, which is most conducive to achieving peace and happiness with one’s self. Her approach is integrated, holistic and eclectic, emphasizing the wholeness of our individual experiences and drawing from multiple evidence-based approaches to best fit one’s needs. This approach allows the individual to reunite with shut off aspects of the self in order to lead a more authentic and mindful life. Interpersonal, cognitive, behavioral, physical, spiritual, and familial factors are explored. She currently provides administrative oversight to her practice, provides supervision and consultation, and leads MBSR groups.

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Joe Van Wie  0:00  
Okay, all the way back home from Colorado, Dr. Tiffany Griffiths is in studio. And today we were going to talk about the use of psychedelics. hallucinogenics, and even a drive to rename that idea, being a tool, a direct tool and stabilization of not only addiction and addiction, PTSD, trauma. And this has been explored in Colorado. It's the reason she moved there. We'll speak about that. So I think we have an hour ahead of us 45 minutes of what have you been up to? First off? How would you summarize why you got into psycho psychology? What was the drive?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  0:46  
So I'm an empath. I've always found that people have gravitated towards me, I'm a caretaker. And so those are really good reasons. But that is also, you know, a hurdle. Because, you know, we have within us the ability to heal. It's not a psychologist that's healing us, it's us. And we provide the space and the environment for them to be able to unfold and to be more authentic.

Joe Van Wie  1:14  
And I was just having a conversation with someone that I know is an empath. And it's, I don't think common knowledge let you consider it that could hurt to you. It could be debilitating, not only as you experienced joy, sadness, but I just listened to a great podcast that made the distinction between Empath, sympathy, and compassion. And empathy never requires agency. But you have a highly tuned way to observe other people's feelings. And that's been useful.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  1:48  
Absolutely. But I think that the compassion piece, I think, is the most useful, and a lot of people think that compassion, you know, if properly delved out, can feel it can feel pretty harsh, because it's like, we're holding up the mirror and saying, you know, let's take, let's take a good luck and be okay with that. And in a non judgmental environment, and,

Joe Van Wie  2:10  
and not the harshness isn't from being cruel. It's from the the cruelty that the truth can cause

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  2:16  
Yes, yeah, yes, absolutely. And entheogens. So this is the terminology you're saying that we're trying to kind of change? Oh,

Joe Van Wie  2:25  
I couldn't I was reading it. I couldn't pronounce

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  2:29  
it. What is it and theologian and theologian T. Yeah,

Joe Van Wie  2:33  
Sue coin that he, he just finished a book about the history, the Hidden History of psychedelics that may have played on the origins of major religions, the course of history, the course of evolution, possibly. And it was it was comprehensive, and he uses that term. Yes. Why pushed to that name is it.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  2:57  
It's really hallucinogen is a miss classification. Okay. Now, we don't think that it's the same act of process that that occurs in psychosis. It could feel that way. And that's probably why it was labeled that way in the beginning.

Joe Van Wie  3:10  
So the first time the word loosen hallucinations that most people don't share. It's a symptom of psychosis. That's, that's descriptive of something that doesn't involve another agent or a drug.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  3:25  
Right? It's just happening. And it's usually because of neurotransmitters in the brain. There's deficiencies there's, you know, faulty wiring, with, with what we believe, because there's still so much not known shorefield is that this is tapping into a different dimension entirely, something that's always available to us, but we're not vibrating at a higher enough frequency to really experience it. Okay. So it's not because of anything going wrong in the brain.

Joe Van Wie  3:56  
It's not the result of toxicity. Exactly. overheating. Like it's not a symptom of something else happening. It's actually what the brain is communicating to the person. And absolutely, I think that's distinct. That's not how we were taught I would assume you and well I thought it's causing insanity before I've ever touched a drug right women jumping out of windows at summer camp, we watch the video. Like this is the kind of look fun, but I was like, is she gonna jump through?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  4:32  
But, but the media did a great job at really scaring us. Reefer Madness. I mean, they're the star.

Joe Van Wie  4:39  
And it takes away curiosity. It feels like my I think that the worst thing it did to me was close my curiosity on it like it wasn't something to ask about without looking silly. Did you ever have experienced that but why like, while you were coming up and absolutely, yeah, yeah. When did that start to change? When did you know you're not getting the full story of what psilocybin or LSD is producing?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  5:08  
Well, I, I experienced that directly. Yeah. You know, he's well, college, particularly. And I knew there's some real benefit in something happening here. And why is this viewed so negatively? So I began to notice and start to being curious about that and delving into the history and seeing, you know, in the 50s, and 60s, there was a ton of research being done on particularly LSD, psilocybin as well, because by then it was synthesized, okay, Albert Hoffman was able to synthesize that. And of course, we're going 1000s and 1000s of years when you start talking about some of the heavier hitters and what I mean by heavier is just, you know, very, very strong psychedelics, origins like I lost, and Ibogaine and peyote,

Joe Van Wie  6:08  
do they all share the same agent? I know I WASC is DMT Correct?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  6:12  
Exactly is the active ingredient. That's what's found in the Chychrun at the plant. So it's actually two, it's a vine and a plant that when brought together, it can be metabolized in the gut, and we can have that experience.

Joe Van Wie  6:25  
So without we unpacked a lot, so we have a distinction to move the name. So it's it's more of a tool. It's not a misclassification of a, an older version of what a hallucinogenic is. This is kind of just, let's put this in the past, let's move towards this being a medical tool. Yeah, and and even from the word psychedelics. And we have this dark history of that you didn't fully go into yet. But what happened? Why didn't that continue? From the 50s? Like, why why what happened to

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  7:00  
so the hippie movement happened? Yeah. And people did not want to go fight a war that the government was mandating that they do. Square. People were thinking for themselves. And you know, Timothy Leary happened. Yeah, tune in, drop out. And, you know, Alan Watts.

Joe Van Wie  7:23  
Yes. Yeah, the squares are sharing the darkest hallucination together. Let's get out of here. Right. Eggs are good. get us all killed.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  7:31  
Exactly. Exactly. And the powers should be we're just absolutely not okay with that. I mean, you know, Nixon is heard on tape and audio tape, you know, really speaking very strong language around this and the need to, you know, get these people in line.

Joe Van Wie  7:46  
And that's the 60s. We were talking Off mic. And even prior to that, right, so 1935 is the genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, most prolific 12 step, the first 12 Step life based on the idea, the whole premise is you can have a spiritual experience that was unaccessible to you by yourself, if you fall, this discipline, sounds enormous. But this all came to effect from a psychedelic well, not a psychedelic in itself, Bella Donna, this this nightshade plant in high doses at Townes hospital where Bill Wilson, the founder of a was he experienced a wind tunnel effect. And I guess we could get to this, but it had an effect where the the identity self ego is muted. Yes. And what you were saying it's not a symptom of psychosis, what happens is the brain begins to Oh, that's my fault. So from my understanding, correct me because I want to learn. There's so much to learn. Yeah. It seems to communicate the editorial, auditory visual cortex talks to each other. Without going through this lens that for no better term, correct me ego self, this illusion of self in mind. Yeah, the timing of it. So your brain is now your ears and visuals are talking. Maybe this way you could see music? Yes. integration. So nothing's, it's not toxicity. So that should be the first indication. We don't know general public people. Oh, you're not being poisoned. Your brain is doing something extraordinary. Now it's been unified. Would that be a way to describe it

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  9:33  
integrated, absolutely unified.

Joe Van Wie  9:35  
So this started a and he revisited that same idea in the 50s for his serious depression with Aldous Huxley. It seems like you were like what you're saying? The hippie movement. And there's a book I read last year 20 Charlie Manson, and secret history of the CIA magic sounds sensational but it's a really serious book. Lately, Tom Oh, yeah. And they put a cap on all of this weaponizing LSD good collecting almost basically the world's synthesize supply. And we lost 70 years of study for this being a tool to help, trauma, PTSD, severe emotional pain.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  10:21  
Absolutely. And along with it was, you know, the Aquatics act. And yeah, schedule became scheduled one I mean, so that means there's no medicinal value. And it's very dangerous.

Joe Van Wie  10:34  
I've tripped and you've tripped. And I've gotten to beautiful concerts where people were just, you know, the sensational Act was maybe they're sucking on a balloon balloon, but we're all pretty chilled out. There's a there's a law in the same state and federal government where I'm doing this that says I'm a crazed, criminal. Absolutely. There might be still an argument for that. But But, yeah, so you have this duplicity, this total Act of, of just conflict for a drug that might be beneficial to millions and millions of people as a tool. Not. We're not even talking right now. Recreational.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  11:14  
Right, absolutely. Madison, Madison.

Joe Van Wie  11:19  
You moved to Cal Colorado? Because Tell me tell me how that happened. When did you know you were because you have your kind of rooted here. Yeah. What happened that made that happen?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  11:31  
Well, it came. It comes down to an experience a non ordinary state of mind and experience that I had. I was doing a week long Silent Retreat at Shambala. In Colorado. It's now called drala. So basically, we know that these non ordinary states these mystical states, these where we transcend ego, yeah. Doesn't. You don't have to take mushrooms or LSD to get there. deep contemplation and meditation will also get you there.

Joe Van Wie  12:09  
Okay, that's, that's the slow lane up the passing, very slowly compared comparatively, I'm in the slow lane these days. My 40s I gotta, I like to slow light,

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  12:18  
right. And so that's my second passion is, I'm an Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction instructor. And, you know, so, so really, having that experience, I was there I was, the veil was lifted, the conditioned mind, I could, was gone. And I could see very, very clearly that there was something there's a purpose for me that I wasn't fulfilling at the business. You know, part of me that was growing as I was, you know, helping the community here it was there was more for me.

Joe Van Wie  12:53  
You love it, you have a footprint here, you have a practice with multiple locations, raising children. You have a great reputation. And I've I've always enjoy your company. You've helped me in the past with smoking or crisis going. I remember stress reduction at your house. You were having clients there. So when I saw you do this, it just perked up my ears like, ate this is credible. Here's another reason why I felt that way prior, but seeing you do this. I guess just explaining that to anyone adds credibility to me, or that knows you that this is where you want to be. Absolutely. And why Colorado they were the first to

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  13:38  
Well, I mean, there's a little bit more movement happening in Oregon right now. But yeah, I am married and my husband and I are going to the West Coast is really what it comes down to. So I like Colorado have a very progressive state. And they have two programs right now at Naropa. And I believe it's called boulder psychiatric institute that are doing this training. So I'm involved in this training that Multidisciplinary Association for psychedelic science though the accrediting body that says, you know this is going to become legalized and used for medicinal purposes, particularly and we need trained clinicians that understand what this does, you know, as far as you know, altered states of consciousness, how to guide people through this and how to help integrate those experiences after the fact. So two programs in Boulder one program through the California Institute of integral studies, that's I know that yeah, program I'm doing Oh, that's a great school because the professors are the leading I mean, we're talking you know, Roland Griffiths, and Bill Richards and Mary Cusumano, Tony bosses, like just incredible professors that are leading the way and that actually a lot of those names I just mentioned, they were doing this in the 50s and 60s,

Joe Van Wie  14:59  
do To do the if, and it's a long way, and then

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  15:03  
they had to wait for all these years knowing that there is so you know, they never lost hope and they are constantly trying to push and get to the right people that would open the door for this kind of research again. And so we saw that a 20 years now Johns Hopkins. So yeah, so when I started seeing this research come out of NYU, Johns Hopkins UCLA, I was like, This is good stuff

Joe Van Wie  15:27  
in short order, like you say, research. Do you mean results to like clinical

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  15:32  
trials are being done that are moving it? So now, you know, we can prove that there's three trials, okay. The first is to prove that it's safe and we've done that okay, with not everything. We haven't gotten to everything because some things can't be synthesized, like Ayahuasca

Joe Van Wie  15:46  
what is you? What do you feel you you're honing in on? You want to button down? What tools? Are you looking at your psilocybin

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  15:53  
particularly? Yeah, and I ask, I would love to see that. But that's not gonna happen in United States for quite some time. So I've been studying in Costa Rica. So most

Joe Van Wie  16:01  
of your concentration of what you're doing now is that you'll apply psilocybin into therapies for trauma, stabilization, addiction,

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  16:11  
substance abuse, OCD, anxiety, depression, PTSD, and and the brunt of the research at Johns Hopkins has been done in cancer patients with secondary anxiety and depression of death like eminent Oh, wow. salutely. And the research and what they're finding is just it's it's not only like, miraculous, and it's also beauty is beautiful, it's absolutely beautiful, that people are able to resolve long lifelong family issues and you know, self hatred and whatever else is blocking their way to to move to the other side.

Joe Van Wie  16:48  
So there's, there's a lot of heroes in this. How do you how do you account for what is it doing? Like how, like, what do we know that it's doing this producing the same results for all those conditions that are kind of, it's a state of its consciousness, like, I know, we could wrap that way. But some people like I want to tell them, they have anxiety, I had this, you know, there's just something right behind it, just the experience of anxiety. It's this contents of consciousness, like there's something that isn't anxious. I'm just, I could go a step behind. Right. I don't know how to get too goofy with the language, but you know what I'd say? How does Why does is that the reason psilocybin covers the board of all these conditions, how would you explain that?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  17:35  
Serotonin serotonin, yeah, it's a serotonin nergic agonist, which means it is creating more serotonin in the brain. And serotonin is the drug that's responsible for different things, but that we know primarily is mood depression. So decrease in serotonin in the brain, which is a neurotransmitter serotonin. Going to cause depression in folks. So this is a heavy, heavy dose. So serotonin to the brain,

Joe Van Wie  18:03  
all these conditions, you know, in general, have this this, earmark serotonin muted, deficient, doesn't stay in the blood long being recycled too quickly, whatever scenario that is, physiologically, yeah, is there another thing that's happening outside of just saying serotonin

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  18:23  
so whatever it is about that the molecular structure and it's very similar startTime but it's not exactly serotonin, still trying to you know, really figure out what the metabolic processes and this is all happening molecular processes, while it's really really cool stuff. But what we think it does is it literally like so it lifts the veil, it allows a reset to where our conditioned self with all the traumas with all the you're not good enough, and you know, you're stupid, you're a failure, no one loves you. No one cares about you, all of that stuff that we've accumulated, that really sticks with us and causes like these stories that we tell ourselves,

Joe Van Wie  19:10  
stories of this memories

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  19:12  
and these limiting beliefs like I am that I'm trapped

Joe Van Wie  19:17  
in an identity that's already it's in stone for the future because of the past I don't deal Yeah,

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  19:24  
so we're identifying with ego we're identifying with those stories that we've been told over and over and we're telling ourselves and this allows, you know, it lifts the veil it deep conditions the mind so then we can see things more clearly for what they are.

Joe Van Wie  19:37  
Yeah. Without the sense of self. So it's like, it's a release. Wow. I I've had the experience and it's the first time you get to talk about it. Besides, you know, people's personal editorial like since growing up. I found benefits from mushrooms, LSD, some of them were bumpy rides. And but to talk about LSD psilocybin and say DMT is this they're all doing this this what you just explained from serotonin a reset of self or the veil drops there's there's something bigger than what I'm saying Joe van wie is this is a Joe van wie D is it? I don't know maybe it's not

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  20:23  

Joe Van Wie  20:25  
I'm in another hypnosis, I felt like my reality. A coma did that to me and I took DMT microdosing, ketamine, all my little chemistry good. But it started to tear that down like, and I felt alone, but I also felt ripped off because I didn't have the guidance of a professional like yourself. Someone who had a sober mind and saw that there's an intent and objection. I was groping in the dark I was getting the stimulation or the effects of it, but it wouldn't translate into life changes,

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  20:59  

Joe Van Wie  21:00  
Is this what you're bringing? Now you think from the California integral,

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  21:04  
sir, this is what we're training folks to do. What is what would that look like?

Joe Van Wie  21:07  
Maybe like I come in a PTSD of addiction. How would this what you're learning start, like what would happen?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  21:16  
Well, in the clinical trials, what they're doing is about six to eight hours of preparation. And of course, the person has to be screened first because there are some contraindications. Okay, psychosis, bipolar with any kind of loosen nation's grandiosity. Then there's the medical side of things like seizure disorder, and serious cardiovascular that screen seized. Yeah, so there's the screening process. And then secondary to that, there's a preparation phase where you're basically letting them know anything goes and anything can happen. And it's all welcome. This is the opportunity to let go, okay, to let go of your fears to let go of your expectations.

Joe Van Wie  21:56  
What is the setting look like? What kind of room or

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  21:59  
trouble very comfortable, there's, you know, a sofa, some of them, even like pull out to, you know, to sofa bed, pull out into a bed, but most of them, it's just a sofa, there's two guides, a male and a female, that are sitting with you and the entire process and ketamine is shorter, but psilocybin, which I'm more interested in is an eight hour day. Yep. And so you're explained to them everything that they can possibly imagine that has happened, and you're trying to help them to see that and it's all welcome. And we are okay with it. Okay, and we are here to save anything, like I mean, even not that it happens often. But you know, sometimes I get nauseous and throw up or lose bowel movement, like that rarely rarely happens with psilocybin, but it has and we want

Joe Van Wie  22:45  
a montage experience but I'm gonna have to step out for a minute.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  22:55  
Right? So we want to set the stage for this is it unconditional loving environment where our job is to keep you safe and to guide you through the process. And then we also learn about their story because stuff is going to come up that if we know their abuse by Uncle Bob when they were 10 or they lost their mother when they were four that's gonna come into their story to be played out and to be worked through

Joe Van Wie  23:22  
how is the story prompted like, are you quiet? Like are you sir dialogue now on the trip is begun. I mean, our to Rome versa. How do you prompt discussion?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  23:33  
You don't have the least amount of talk as possible. Yeah, it's interesting. It's not I mean, it's why you know, we're calling ourselves therapists but it's very different role, which is hard for me because I gotta take that off. Right? Yeah, we're holding space we are witnessing Yeah, this transformation and we're reminding them that they are safe that don't run away, like when you see the monster. Yeah, don't run a REIT run to when you see the Anaconda. Go through the mouth and look through the eyes. You know, like, this is the time to not run this is where we're really trying to resolve old conflict. Let them come up. Let's deal with them. The reason that they're still there and they're lingering and they're affecting your life is because you've never faced them. Yeah. No, she would run and so that's what that's what the prompting is all about. You are safe. And then sometimes people can get little you know, difficulty breathing or getting panicky so you might want to breathe with them just a breathing exercise, sometimes just simple touch, you know, which is all communicated beforehand. Yeah. Do you like being touched you like being touch on your shoulder? Do you like your hands?

Joe Van Wie  24:44  
Like the CIA? We're gonna put a wet towel over your head for Yeah, check this strobe light out. What do you think of Qaddafi? Yeah, so

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  24:55  
it's set in setting, credibly and important, and that's why a lot of people have bad trips. Yes, the bad trip, if with the proper guidance can turn out to be an absolutely amazing life altering experience.

Joe Van Wie  25:11  
I'm glad you said that, because I don't, I would never want to tell you when I worked in drug and alcohol. But I had a bad trip and it changed my life. It's why I'm sitting here. Yeah. But that was me being a cowboy. I don't know what the guardrails are. Professionally, I was so happy you came on to talk about this, because this is in five years, this gonna look childish, our conversation six years, I really believe that it's happening. What about the role of music now say the same scenario we've been describing there in the room? When does when do you prompt? Or when would you include music? Does the person decide? Is there an option to, like involved? Sound

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  25:53  
is always involved. So right now, because of all the clinical trials, we have to have it exactly the same all the time.

Joe Van Wie  25:59  
Absolutely. You know, so the future of this will be a little more creative,

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  26:04  
right, we're standardizing it so we can say, okay, when this doesn't look like this, it's not anything we did differently. We're always doing it the same exact way. You know, I shades on earphones on to God, this amount of preparation, this amount of integration. All of that has to be standardized, including the music was this

Joe Van Wie  26:26  
prepared over the last three decades with these unsung heroes since the moment so they were prepared, they had some ideas of how how this is going to flow when our time is right. People come to their senses, the public, Congress, lunatics. But they had some idea of what this was gonna unfold how this was gonna unfold. Wow, what a what a beautiful story that will be of a bunch of, you know,

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  26:54  
these are pioneers. And they're just brilliant people too, because it these things are difficult to control for because in clinical trials, usually you have a placebo. Yeah. And then, you know, the medicine that has been tested for eight hours wondering if it'll be pretty obvious. Surely. There you got the drug? Was that a Pez? Yeah, ripped off man. And, you know, the best childs are also aware, you know, it's a double blind study. So, the researcher also doesn't know but so these things are hard to control for when you discount so one research study used Ritalin to try to create some kind of an effect. I still Yeah, you know. But yeah, very innovative, progressive, forward thinking people that have really made this happen and brought it out again,

Joe Van Wie  27:42  
you're a part of this, you're in Colorado doing this now.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  27:46  
Well, I'm preparation and prepper prepper. Yeah.

Joe Van Wie  27:49  
So that's, that's a session. And is they're starting to is form starting to be taken through that one session. Would that be enough for say a case of PTSD you're starting to see dosages and how much therapy would be needed for certain scenarios that will be standardized.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  28:09  
So these are literally one and done one and done what now? Ketamine is a little bit different. Yeah, you meet for several sessions, but it's also that acts on different receptors to so it's not just serotonin.

Joe Van Wie  28:21  
A different experience. It's kind of a second Dalek know that. It's like a disassociated, right. So And would that be just out of my own curiosity, I'll get stuck there. I took ketamine after the coma because I felt so disassociated from my body, my identity, my consciousness, and it was filled with terror. I couldn't sleep I thought I'd wake up I could be like, you know, an old Cuban man somewhere fishing and I was like, was that all dream simply be a dream. I was a Joe in Scranton, what? I don't know I was whacked out. But I was. I was friends with you know, a vet this that snorting ketamine trying to dose it to myself beat it. I could see it was affecting, but I didn't want to I was afraid of a keyhole, like in a high dose. So what you're doing with ketamine is that low dose micro dosing and and high dose? Yeah, high dose treatment.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  29:19  
I am and there's IV and the IV is, you know, heavier hitter and is higher dose and same thing with psilocybin. I mean, they're doing psilocybin. What Terence McKenna? Truck dose like two or four, six grams.

Joe Van Wie  29:34  
And this this produces heavy, heavy. Yeah, well,

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  29:39  
so with the ketamine, it's both like so they they're using the micro and they're also using this as IV

Joe Van Wie  29:45  
there's a therapeutic idea behind you're trying Are you trying to manifest the scenario what I could put a footnote in later of what a K hole is this?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  29:54  
Pretty much yeah, with the proper guidance and allowing people to really fully experience that Death to be able to release ego die

Joe Van Wie  30:02  
you get a free death here if we're gonna reboot your Mario character writer, right? Like if I had to look at a two dimensional I get a better understanding of what fourth dimension oh help looks like space time memory this idea it's what I'm something more behind my experience like how is that there's there's an illusion happening it's tormenting me I think addicts I get along with people who have anxiety or crisis or trauma with or without addiction what you're aware of the illusion but your can't be true I don't want to talk about it because no one and we all know it's there just in front of our face like something a fraud has been committed to my committee to myself.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  30:52  
Right. It's freakish? Absolutely.

Joe Van Wie  30:55  
And I got thrown through that hole and I don't feel freakish talking about it. Now. It doesn't upset me. It comforts me. And I'm going somewhere further. That's true. Not deceptive, or and I connect my it brought this idea I had a hard time being intimate and relationships or I don't know if 40 years even sober how to tell you how I felt. I felt really uncomfortable. I don't feel that right now. Yeah. And it's, that was the genesis it was the bridge to what I define as my recovery today. What do you think, politically marketing in this this campaign, this ground campaign in each state? What's it gonna look like? Who are the warriors in this campaign to educate people?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  31:47  
So the science, sorry, scientists are still the ones that we're looking to. If we're smart about it anyway, you know, sounds like you are. But the scientists, the real warriors are the ones that are bringing us the proof that's necessary to move this forward to move it out of a schedule one class of drugs which never have been put into in the first place. So then we can, you know, get it in the hands of the practitioners or prescribers and use it as the medicine that's intended to be used for

Joe Van Wie  32:16  
that's the first hurdle you'd like to see happen is it's this this class schedule. Absolutely. This irrational position that the government's taking on tool. Like taking that on a magic mushrooms versus I could go down and drink like gut rot vodka. It's like, can we slow it's getting everyone to slow down. We're going from crisis to crisis, getting people to listen outside of putting out another fire right now.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  32:47  
But yeah, the major players politically, I mean, of course Fetterman here in Pennsylvania has always been a huge proponent and his wife's experience, you know, with cannabis and really being open and sharing about that, you know,

Joe Van Wie  33:00  
he was the mayor of Braddock, prior to his engagement statewide, and I was watching this guy be the mayor, and he was getting tattoos. Uh huh. He's, he's wild. He's awesome.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  33:12  
He's authentic is murder victims. Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, yeah, he's the real deal. And really, one of the risk takers that is going to take this to the next level. And that's what we need. We don't need people who are, you know, fearful and don't want to say the wrong thing? Or don't? And quite honestly, you know, that that was always one of my concerns, too. You know, I've had an interest in this for a very long time. But until it started coming out at Johns Hopkins, and why you I was like,

Joe Van Wie  33:37  
afraid to talk about it? Of course, you. Yeah. And you speak truth a lot. If anyone knows you, your personality. Going back to ego and self that illusion. How do you separate that from an idea of a personality? They're the same like having do I manufacture a personality

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  34:02  
from day one we done these spacesuits, ROM Das is to call it and we start to create memories and experiences that now are stories and tell us this is who you are. This is who you are in the world without understanding that this was just in this moment, how I was perceiving experiencing myself that can happen to change in the next moment if we give ourselves the opportunity, but yeah, conditioned mind wants to put things in nice neat boxes. So then because really, it would be difficult to live like that.

Joe Van Wie  34:39  
It would be overwhelming there'd be no linear kind of right. It would in the stimulation would just translate to fear. Right? Because it just total misunderstanding of your senses aren't even working at on time. So some of them absolutely non high dose trips. And I've been scared and I don't know what I'm scared of. It wasn't a memory at first are the things that caught As me anxiety, I'm overwhelmed because things aren't translating right away. I'm like a little breezy. I'm a little edgy you what did I do? Did I? And I feel like I'm still visiting my personality this. I'm just spitballing here to reset that fear. Like I'm doing it from that position to say there's an intent I am tripping. Yeah. There's it's hard to see where it begins and ends. I'm just remembering some scenarios sitting and thinking. Okay, all right. It feels like you're still a Joe van wie I didn't want to the ego. It feels like you're dying.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  35:32  
And the ego wants to hold tight. It's like no way. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's difficult to let go and to surrender. That's a big part of this. It's hard, especially if you have any, you know, questionable faith. This is where like, the religion, spirituality, all of this comes into play. You know, it

Joe Van Wie  35:52  
was long gone before it was. Yeah, yeah. It was long gone. But I'll tell you what, it was empty. Because resentment blocked me from any new information. In words, I was resentful that like it would shut my I could I could tell I shut down listening to someone if they started using certain words. But it left me empty because it wasn't replaced with something that was hopeful I was stuck in a material world. And if this is it, I this is my interpretation that was happening to me. It's cynical, it's cruel. It's duplicity, life sacred until you have to eat it all day. To stay like I thought an eight year old could if if there was an intelligence behind this, couldn't have an eight year old child of design something more pleasant to be part of. So nothing was replacing that DMT did. It did this first, it shows you some veil. I don't know how to describe it. I know I left my body had nothing to do with it. And consciousness doesn't seem it seems to be contained by a body. But that's not fully true either. If you meditate long enough, you realize I'm not there's something close your eyes for an hour, and you realize what what effect is your body outside of the stimulation, this experience? I'm starting to experience that more last two years. Is this where you want to get people that have anxiety?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  37:19  
Yeah, absolutely. Because then they're not identifying with that any longer. That is not who I am. That's what I'm experiencing right now. And if I just sit in it, this too shall pass will come and the next moment will come. That's what we've tried to help people to do in mindfulness is just to what part of you is not depressed right now? Because there's always that the conscious work question. So if I can view my depression, that that part of me is not depressed.

Joe Van Wie  37:52  
And in most cases, people have to re manufacture depression with the story. That's the loop they're stuck in exactly how would you describe it? So you're trying to find a break like to give them like, say, a person like me responsibility over your, you're causing this, like,

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  38:11  
and what it allows is, it allows old memories and traumas more than more than others, like with Ayahuasca, like it's literally like she could rip trauma from your, your cells, your muscles, you people have, you know, experienced that over and over again, like just ripping it all out and coming to the surface. Ayahuasca is a purgative. Yeah, it's a lot of vomiting. And the feeling is that it is it's a release, it's all of this energy that's been tied up in not feeling the effects of the trauma, not feeling the effects of the neglect or not feeling good enough, or whatever. So this allows it all to surface so it can be worked through so we let it go. And we're not carrying that around with us anymore. And then we can start to see oh, that's why I tell myself that. I can't do that. I'm not good enough for that. Or you start to see it in a new light, you start to see

Joe Van Wie  39:07  
and it's objective, the PTSD thinking about the same scenario doesn't bring immediate emotion that it's happening. Right. Right. Does that seem to be Yeah, my wife had that effect. She went on an Ayahuasca trip to deal with some things. And let's, let's just for the thought experiment of it, what you you have a case in front of you, PTSD, trauma, whatever, whatever you want to imagine. You don't have the access to psilocybin. And what does that treatment look like? For a hard case? How many? How many? How much? How many years or months or weeks are we looking at to make a breakthrough?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  39:47  
Just regular talk therapy.

Joe Van Wie  39:49  
Yeah, just talk therapy.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  39:51  

Joe Van Wie  39:52  
years? Yeah. All right, same scenario. What are you seeing and what you're experiencing and being a part of you add psilocybin to an eight hour session of someone that traditionally may take 10 years to feel empowered from their past like they could. What's the timeline there?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  40:14  
It could be right after ceremony, their life is forever changed. It's it's it happens over and over and over again. And people are saying like, they're reading it as like the single most significant life event they've ever experienced. And it's transformational now, without the proper integration, yeah, it really integration means is like you are doing something contemplative every day to make sure you stay in that space and stay tuned. In walks in nature. Mindfulness is

Joe Van Wie  40:44  
your follow up. Are you like yourself thinking of like, oh, this will be a good follow up, like an outpatient kind of service in the sense that or community forget the clinical names have probably be a little too gross in the venture that I know, you know, what's happening with people? Can community rise out of this? People who have this treatment to keep a modality or discipline of that, like nature? mindfulness practices do you do? Are you already envisioning?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  41:13  
Absolutely, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the Sangha, the

Joe Van Wie  41:17  
Sangha. Yeah. Refuge recovery, that's like we call Sangha online.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  41:23  
Part of this is a huge part of this, and then having, you know, an integration. So somebody that's in the field has a master's or doctorate level that they go through the maps training, and in psychedelic integration, therapy and research, and then they can help them integrate that into their everyday lives. Because sometimes it's pretty like altering like, how am I going to go back to being Tiffany, like, how do I do that now, because I know I am not that no longer but I still have this role I need to play and you recognize it as a role. You see it for what it is awesome.

Joe Van Wie  41:54  
I think your fan of Allah Watts gives a great speech once on Hindu history. And he starts practicing Buddhism and Hinduism stripped for export. All right, yeah. He tells in his own words, it's the same. The idea Shiva, the God of Time, death is the God that just knows all reality. And in this, this idea of that God existing, which is similar to the Christian God, how bored would you be, you have to have a dream, and he dreams, he's us. And we're just playing a role so deeply. We get lost in it. I think that's descriptive to my addiction. And, you know, anxiety, disconnection from people. And waking up is the experience that you can have on a trip or the slow road of steps or some Sanyo or community that can wait. But you got to wake up. Absolutely. Yeah. Wake up.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  42:56  
And the move towards the word entheogen. Yeah, it means is accessing the divine within. Okay. Yeah. And that's, that's what's causing all these people to observe or recover. Because when you're in that space, you just recognize that all there is is love. Yeah, there's forgiveness. And perhaps, yeah, perhaps God, you know, has created all of this. So so he or she can feel

Joe Van Wie  43:23  
Yeah. Or wake himself up. Maybe he's been dreaming to our piece today.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  43:27  
Who knows? Who knows. But, you know, it is also shown to a lot of people in these experiences these trips, is that everything is a perfect balance. You know, a lot of people want to know, and you know, Michiko, you know, like, Why Why does there have to be suffering? Why? And, you know, you can't have the joy without the pain, you don't know what it is that you're experiencing.

Joe Van Wie  43:50  
There's no you without a backdrop. I mean, it's hard to peel that apart. But it sounds like a child's kind of philosophy, but it's pretty much it's a very profound one. What is the Yang without the Yang they don't there's they're incomprehensible. Without pain, what is the taste of, you know, happiness? Joy. Two things I wanted to just touch on before we're getting there. The School of California Integrated Studies. It's in San Francisco, and they have other locations. Correct. Right.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  44:22  
So yeah, so yeah, I'm doing the Boston cohort. There's an online cohort. Yep. And what

Joe Van Wie  44:27  
is the program program? What? Ideally who's, who's going to this already licensed psychologists,

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  44:34  
marriage, family, counseling counselors, social workers, clergy, physicians, nurse practitioners, nurses,

Joe Van Wie  44:44  
and this is so ground level. Are you all kind of making a consortium connections resources to share with each other you I'll call you that? That's, that's exciting. That's, that's your mavericks and you're courageous. So, I am just so thrilled if someone wanted to read more information, or pursue one of these trials from John Hopkins or to where? What would be your suggestion?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  45:11  
So a good site is a row ID, er OWI. D. Road has a lot of information, maps, the Multidisciplinary Association for psychedelic science and love as or But, I mean, they're, you know, they're the source of all, as far as you know, getting these programs up and running. Looking at the research through, you know, that Johns Hopkins is doing particularly on cancer patients, and now they're moving through these different stages of clinical trials.

Joe Van Wie  45:41  
Smoking now, I'm trying to quit desperately for Yeah, yeah, I was enlightened to the point that nicotine would kind of wiggled its way into my trip.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  45:54  
To time so that's it. That's one of the lessons we learned. It doesn't happen when we want to it happens when, yeah, it's supposed to happen.

Joe Van Wie  46:03  
So I'm gonna put those links up there, and your practice here, which is profound, and it's helped a lot of people that I know, personally. Are you? Are you are people reaching out to you already for for?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  46:16  
Yeah. Wow. So I thought that, you know, after I could let go of some of the administrative stuff that I would go back to doing traditional therapy, but that was before I discovered ayahuasca and all this research has been done, and quite honestly, I, I can't waste somebody's time like that ever again.

Joe Van Wie  46:33  
Wow. You know, that's the first time I heard that. It's utilitarian, wasting a decade of someone's lives. So

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  46:41  
it's better than nothing. Don't get me wrong. Yeah. But when there's this out there. That's what that's what I want to be bringing to the community.

Joe Van Wie  46:48  
Do you know what I forgot to ask? It's a really was curious because it's hard. I work in drug and alcohol. It seems you still feel heavy? I'm hedging. I don't talk about it in a treatment center workout, but it's a whisper. Everybody's whispering. And I wanted to start talking about specially someone with your education, your professional career, your understanding and compassion with people. You're here doing this. When what are the guidelines, you think there'll be distinctions between trauma, PTSD and addiction? Now, because of drug use indulgence? Are there smart people starting to make the guardrails of like, here's the screening for people with addiction, backgrounds, opiates, alcoholism, that they can feel safe. We all know this is sensible. Is that coming in a pretty articulate way?

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  47:46  
Yeah, absolutely. Well,

Joe Van Wie  47:48  
is there anywhere I can read more? A lot

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  47:51  
of the research back in the 60s was very specific to substance abuse. So yeah, we haven't really been utilizing that isn't as much, but particularly at Johns Hopkins or, because there's a lot more factors that need to be controlled for and, you know, honesty and integrity when someone's using they're probably not being very truthful about that. And

Joe Van Wie  48:16  
we're kind of I know some weirdos myself at one point in my life that would go to a research shows as be cool people to trip with. Exactly. That so I think that'll be fractional, don't you think? I

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  48:31  
think there's some of that heavier hitters that are showing a lot of promise with that, like ayahuasca and Ibogaine. We haven't synthesized that yet. So we can't even use that in clinical trials. Although Mexico's doing some pretty good research. Cool. You might want to look at that I can get the institution.

Joe Van Wie  48:46  
So synthesizing Yeah, we made it into some manufactured pills. Easy. ingestible form, you're crushing roads getting hot. Some hot water.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  48:54  
Exactly. Right. So how do you measure that? do clinical trials eyeball

Joe Van Wie  48:58  
it? How's Fred doing? No, that was too much. Well, Tiff, I don't want to I know you got to dinner. But please, if there's any breakthroughs let me I want to reach out to you, especially in the realm of addiction, because I think it's gonna save people decades of pain and confusion.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  49:23  
Anecdotally, we're seeing that all the time at these institutions like the ones that are legal, like in Costa Rica in Peru, you know, that's where people are going. Yeah, you know, another because no one has the means to do that.

Joe Van Wie  49:36  
No, but it'll it's coming. And you've one of the smart minds behind how is this going to be accessible and safe. And no stigma attached? Because there's acid or psilocybin stigma.

Tiffany Griffiths PsyD  49:49  
Exactly. We need to move away from even using the word drug. Yeah, that's got negative connotations to it. That's cool. I'd love to come back and share with you more information. Yeah.

Joe Van Wie  50:00  
If you're in Colorado I'll send you a link with stream we'll do a live feed awesome thanks Jeff

Unknown Speaker  50:06  
Yeah thank you

Transcribed by

Manson, CIA, War....
Whats happening?
Psilocybin, DMT, LSD
The New Ground